We read in Bereishit 26:33

"Isaac named the well Shibah. The city is therefore called Be'er Sheva to this very day."

Does this imply that there is an issur d'raisah (Divine prohibition) to change the name of Be'er Sheva, or any place name in Israel?

Isn't it just a statement of fact; an explanation of why it is called Be'er Sheva?

It is an explanation of why it is called Be'er Sheva, but why add that it is called Be'er Sheva to this day.

I would venture to say that there is a not so oblique commandment here against changing the name as that would then make this part of the Torah untrue, G-d forbid.

Why would it make this part of the Torah untrue? If the name changed, then it could be remembered that "this place was known as X as mentioned in Y" And what about other names and places in Chumash, has it always stayed the same from what is written in the Chumash till now? This is an interesting idea that you brought up.

Or, Hashem knew that this place name would NEVER change, so the Torah could say that.

See the Sugya at the end of the 1st Perek of Brachos where it talks about the prohibition of calling Avraham "Avrom". That’s because it uses the term "your name shall be called....". But here there is no such term.

Dear Rav Chaim:

Is it wrong to refer to Avraham by his earlier name when specifically refering to him at an event in his life way before his name was changed?

The Torah refers to Avraham as "Avrom", so it appears that it wouldn't be wrong. However, no one names their kid "Avrom", so that is what it must mean, no one is to have a name as "Avrom" and only as "Avraham".

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
See the Sugya at the end of the 1st Perek of Brachos where it talks about the prohibition of calling Avraham "Avrom". That’s because it uses the term "your name shall be called....". But here there is no such term.

The prohibition against calling Avraham, "avrom" stems from the fact that HaShem Himself ordained Avraham's new name. Therefore it is disrespectful both to G-d and Avraham by referring to Avraham as "Avrom". Incidentally, we don't find the same prohibition when Ya'akov's was called Yisroel.

Sam: The reason why I would say that if Be'er Sheva's name changed would make the Torah invalid, G-d forbid, is because the statement "it is called this to this very day" would clearly not be true. Therefore, I contend that there is a Biblical commandment here not to change this name, or any other name where the same phrase is used.

Or it could be, as you say, that HaShem knew that it would never be changed and this is a prophecy as well as a commandment.

I know several Jews who go by the name Avrom (some spell Avrum as well), so I don't think there is any prohibition on calling someone other than Avraham Avinu by our forefather's initial name.

Furthermore I was wondering if this might be useful if a Jew being called for an aliyah who might wanted to avoid raising a question as to whether he could be both a "ben Avraham" in name and a Jew by birth in whatever fashion that might matter, such as if geirus is consisdered intrinsicly suspicious.

quote:

if Be'er Sheva's name changed would make the Torah invalid, G-d forbid,

Even if the name changed in our today, but in yesterday's today the name was still as it was recorded in Moshe Rabeinu's time, how would that in any way invalidate Torah?

Of course Torah is timeless, but one principle of learning (I would again reference archives of Rav Yitzchak Etshalom of YULA at Torah.org for his MIKRA shiurim) is to hear the words as the original audience heard them...

How would it be a problem that "to this very day" was true for a long period of time but did in fact cease to be true for a new audience generation? It was certainly true for the original audience and for many generations after.

Also I am not sure the specific relevance, but there is a very nice description of the name Yerushalayim was formed... but I cannot ever remember the exact place I found the reference... I think its a Midrash referenced in Sefer Bereishis...

One righteous person name it Salem (I think that was Shem/Malkizedek), and another named it something beginning with Yeru, and thus it was named as a combination of both names so that neither righteous person would be slighted.

How many other place name changes are recorded in the Torah?

Is name changing or name preservation "to this very day" more prominent when reviewing all the place names in the Torah?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Furthermore I was wondering if this might be useful if a Jew being called for an aliyah who might wanted to avoid raising a question as to whether he could be both a "ben Avraham" in name and a Jew by birth in whatever fashion that might matter, such as if geirus is consisdered intrinsicly suspicious.

A convert is "ben Avraham Avinu" and so, to avoid embarrassment, should be called up as just "ben Avraham". This shouldn't raise any questions.

Right, now suppose there is a born Jew who for whatever reason doesn't want anyone to think that he might possibly be a Ger Tzedek... but his father was named Avraham by his grandfather at his father's bris...

Perhaps a Jewish codeword of the father being called Avrum might be useful so that this son can have a full name which is distinguishable from a Ger being spared whatever embarrassment by dropping off the "Avinu" title?

This one contra-embarassment protection may thus in fact trigger other embarassment to others!

Whether or not either embarrassment is a proper or reasonable outcome, it does seem to happen in both ways, that Ger Tzadkim don't want their geuris to be considered suspicious, and Born Jews don't want to be confused as Geirim.

And my observation is that there might be a tendency to shy away from using Avraham Avinu's full improved name without the suffix title among a Jewish by birth crowd, such that the nickname Avrum is popular.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
[QUOTE]if Be'er Sheva's name changed would make the Torah invalid, G-d forbid,

Even if the name changed in our today, but in yesterday's today the name was still as it was recorded in Moshe Rabeinu's time, how would that in any way invalidate Torah?

Of course Torah is timeless, but one principle of learning (I would again reference archives of Rav Yitzchak Etshalom of YULA at Torah.org for his MIKRA shiurim) is to hear the words as the original audience heard them...

How would it be a problem that "to this very day" was true for a long period of time but did in fact cease to be true for a new audience generation? It was certainly true for the original audience and for many generations after.

QUOTE]

This is interesting because it echoes the answer to my question that I have just learned, and a follow-up question.

The Rashbam to Bereishit 19:37 states that when teh Torah refers to 'this very day' it is in fact relating to the day of the scribe i.e. Moshe, and in the case of Moshe's burial site, either Moshe or Yehoshua.

The problem I have with this is that when reading the Torah, I believe that every word is as relevant today as was then. So, to me, 'this very day' has to apply to today. Otherwise, we are limiting, G-d forbid, the Torah's worth as it were to the times when it was given. It is a short step for people to say that if certain parts of the Torah refer to a specific time period, then the commandments do too.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
I know several Jews who go by the name Avrom (some spell Avrum as well), so I don't think there is any prohibition on calling someone other than Avraham Avinu by our forefather's initial name.

Question that you need to ask is as follows: What is the full spelling of their name vs. the nickname spelling, e.g. Avrum or Avrummi vs. Avroham.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Whether or not either embarrassment is a proper or reasonable outcome, it does seem to happen in both ways, that Ger Tzadkim don't want their geuris to be considered suspicious, and Born Jews don't want to be confused as Geirim.

As to the former, it's more a question of Geirim not needing to publicise the fact that they are converted. As to the latter, I have never heard of anyone not wishing to be called "ben Avraham" because people might think they are Geirim. What evidence do you have for either of these assertions?

Dear Yisroel:

I am sorry but I am unable to publicly share the evidence that I have to substantiate my assertion that there exist Jews by birth who have been assumed by other Jews to be Geirim. I am also not sure why you find it necessary to ask for such evidence.

Would you agree that it would be awkward for any Jew, particularly if they were born Jewish, to be asked when they converted?

Would you also agree that if it should be that the only indicator of possible Ger Tzedek status was that their Aliyah call is ben Avraham, that this might become a disincentive to using his father's otherwise prestigious name?

And would you agree that there are people who use the first name Avrum? A quick search of Shamash archives should readily bring one up since the founder is one such person.

Hence my wild unsubstiantiated theory that one possible explanation for this short form name could be to indicate that one's father is named after but not actually Avraham Avinu.

Sorry if was not clear tht this was just a theory, or that I had been trying to prove this theory.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Dear Yisroel:

I am sorry but I am unable to publicly share the evidence that I have to substantiate my assertion that there exist Jews by birth who have been assumed by other Jews to be Geirim. I am also not sure why you find it necessary to ask for such evidence.

It's just that I have never come across such a thing.

quote:

Would you agree that it would be awkward for any Jew, particularly if they were born Jewish, to be asked when they converted?

On the contrary. I would think it would be rather awkward for the questioner when he is told that the person is not in fact a Ger.

quote:

Would you also agree that if it should be that the only indicator of possible Ger Tzedek status was that their Aliyah call is ben Avraham, that this might become a disincentive to using his father's otherwise prestigious name?

Since I know so many born Jews whose fathers' name is Avraham, then I wouldn't agree.

quote:

And would you agree that there are people who use the first name Avrum? A quick search of Shamash archives should readily bring one up since the founder is one such person.

I've never been sure whether people called Avrum are in fact Avraham but others are lazy in using the whole name.

quote:

Hence my wild unsubstiantiated theory that one possible explanation for this short form name could be to indicate that one's father is named after but not actually Avraham Avinu.

The bottom line is that you feel that Jews who are not Geirim would be embarrassed to be thought of as Geirim. Why not look at it from the other end? Jews who are Geirim should be and, I am sure, are proud to be Geirim.

Quote "Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
See the Sugya at the end of the 1st Perek of Brachos where it talks about the prohibition of calling Avraham "Avrom". That’s because it uses the term "your name shall be called....". But here there is no such term.



The prohibition against calling Avraham, "avrom" stems from the fact that HaShem Himself ordained Avraham's new name. Therefore it is disrespectful both to G-d and Avraham by referring to Avraham as "Avrom". Incidentally, we don't find the same prohibition when Ya'akov's was called Yisroel."

The Gemarah in Brachos over there says that whoever calls Avraham "Avrom" transgresses a positive Mitzvah, as it says "you should be called Avraham. He’s also transgresses a negative commandment "You should not be called anymore "Avrom". (SO it would seem to be commandments.)

Furthermore the Gemarah asks there should be a prohibition to call Sarah "Sarei"? the Gemarah answers that the commandment was only given to Avraham, that he shouldn’t call her Sarei, but to everyone else it’s permitted. (SO even when Hashem changed the name , you need a commandment.)

The Gemarah asks that the same should apply to Yaakov, that you should never call him that? The Gemarah answers that Hashem called him Yaakov afterwards, so it couldn’t be that he was changing it not to be called again Yaakov"

Quote "Dear Rav Chaim:

Is it wrong to refer to Avraham by his earlier name when specifically refering to him at an event in his life way before his name was changed?"

The Gemarah asks from Nechemya referring to Avrom and answers that he was referring to the time before he was called Avrahom, so apparently it’s permitted.

For the Halacha, the R’ Akiva Eiger in Gilyon Hashas brings a Magen Avraham that brings this Gemarah down for the Halacha. R’ Y. Landou in Degel Marvavah asks why it’s not in the count of Mitzvos?

R’ Eiger brings down the Pri Chodosh that says it’s only a D’Rabanan.