Parshas Shemos

"Whoa !! I think my days of doing favors for
others are over!! I helped him big time, and that's
what he does in return?!

Moshe (Moses)was raised in the house of Pharoah,
yet because he empathized with his fellow Jews, he
killed an Egyptian who was trying to kill a Jew. The
next day,he tried to stop two Jews from fighting.
Instead of appreciating his good intentions and that
he saved a life the day before, they informed Pharoah
that he killed an Egyptian.As a result he became a
fugitive from Pharoah.(Shemos 2:11-15) Despite his
frustrating entre into Jewish communal life, Moshe
spent the rest of his life helping Bnai Yisroel.

Although receiving gratitude is great motivation,
doing what's right in the eyes of G-d is our greatest
impetus for doing good deeds!!

Have a great Shabbos!!

Rabbi Chaim Flom

Dear Rabbi Flom,
This is very difficult to do because it goes against human nature. But
I guess we have to try.
Thanks,
Tzivy

Rav Flom,
I echo your sentiments with qualification. Perhaps you could clarify. My issue does not concern gratitude per se, but it concerns how people should treat one another despite gratitude.
1. Jews betraying Jews to goyim. This is exactly what happened to Moshe Rabbienu. He was betrayed by fellow Jews to Pharo.
2. Jews betraying Jews to Jews.
3. Goyim betraying Jews.

a) Should we roll over and continue to do good to Jews and goyim who do us harm and trust that HaShem will intervene?
b) Should we take some limited action to protect ourselves?
c) Should we fight back to win our case?

quote:

a) Should we roll over and continue to do good to Jews and goyim who do us harm and trust that HaShem will intervene?

How about just continue to love doing acts of kindness because it is our mitzvah to do so?

I don't think that's rolling over, and I don't think intervention by Strict Justice is necessary.

Rob,
You don't think we should fight back Palestinians? You think it's our mitzvah to treat them with kindness when they are blowing us to bits on the streets of Jerusalem? you think we should treat them with kindness and let HaShem take care of the problem?

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Rav Flom,
I echo your sentiments with qualification. Perhaps you could clarify. My issue does not concern gratitude per se, but it concerns how people should treat one another despite gratitude.
1. Jews betraying Jews to goyim. This is exactly what happened to Moshe Rabbienu. He was betrayed by fellow Jews to Pharo.
2. Jews betraying Jews to Jews.
3. Goyim betraying Jews.

a) Should we roll over and continue to do good to Jews and goyim who do us harm and trust that HaShem will intervene?
b) Should we take some limited action to protect ourselves?
c) Should we fight back to win our case?

Moshe, in response to a, b, and c- i would like to remind you of the added bracha in shmonei esrei that we daven- V'lmalshinim.

First off, we DO have to trust that Hashem will take care of the situation- because otherwise we wouldnt be able to make the bracha, "shover oyvim u'machnia zedim."
Its like the child that is told he cant have an apple by his father, so the boy goes ahead and makes a bracha anyways- then his father has to give it to him otherwise the bracha will be in vain. So too with us, we make a bracha that Hashem is going to take care of us- its up to us to have faith in it.

BUT does that mean to just "roll over" and deal with whatever comes our way? No, it means to rely upon communal decisions made by our Rabbonim- whether they are to put someone in cherem or whatnot. This is an ultimate combination of faith and action.

My 2 cents.

Bracha and Rob,

Do you both mean Israel should never go to war and Israel should have never gone to war? We salute and celebrate Hannuka today because some Jews decided to fight. Was that against halacha, against the bracha you just mentioned etc. I'm not an advocate for war. I'm just saying there is too much talk of "let HaShem take care of it" when, in fact, we do take care of it ourselves in various ways, many of which are perverse, and still say what you are saying. I'm trying to get from Rav Flom the real and honest parameters, not sound bites that we think Torah teaches.

I don't know if any Rabbonim have ever put any Palestinian murderer in some kind of cherem. The State of Israel put them in prison, until the next prisoner release. Should we have waited for HaShem to do something? I'm trying to learn the difference "HaShem doing something" and "HaShem using us as agents" to do the same. When I say "us" I include the Rabbonim.

First off, cherem was in regards to Jewish informers (CH"V) on other Jews.

Secondly, before one can ask if we should fight voluntary wars in eretz yisroel one has to ask these questions:

should the jewish people be living under a secular government? is the secular government making things better or worse for us? should jews even be living in eretz yisroel when there is a secular government involved- or is it blatant suicide?

The difference between Chanukah and now is that there was no secular Jewish government leading wars.

This topic is already treading into emotional and political territories- leaving room only for debates and ill feelings. I for one, will not be a party to it.

Bracha,
You just touched on the pertinent halachic issues. That's what I'm interested in. I don't care for the politics either. In your response you just answered many of the questions I asked. You are basically saying there is a halachic basis for fighting voluntary and non-voluntary wars in a halachic state. So you are saying there is place for "not leaving it to HaShem" or are you saying we are actually part of HaShem's purpose? Are we availing ourselves to be used as agents in HaShem's cause....or is this really our own cause? This takes us back to my original question to Rav Flom.

a) Should we roll over and continue to do good to Jews and goyim who do us harm and trust that HaShem will intervene?
b) Should we take some limited action to protect ourselves?
c) Should we fight back to win our case?

These questions are not political. I'm asking for the halachic basis. I know your stance on the secular state of Israel and I agree with you. My question here is a halachic one, not a political one. I'm not trying to convert anyone to any particular view, I just want to know what the halacha is. That's all.

quote:

You don't think we should fight back Palestinians?

Guess I must have missed the context of your question -- I thought you were asking on person to person basis, and I pointed out another possibility to Jew wronged by Jew.

The PLO terrorist bastards had no part in my mindset, so please don't infer a few, particularly a preposterous one, in my words.

My take on this is that , on the same wavelength to what Rob said, we should do what seems right to us in the light of Torah. If we get caught up with our emotional reactions to people's behaviour, we are not using the basis we should for our behaviour. If we focus on our emotions as a key to action, we can do all sorts of unsuitable things, often coming from a bad source within ourselves. The only way to act is the right way, and there is one basic way to finding out what that is.

If we focus our deliberations on our personal evaluation pros and cons concerning the other's behaviour, we are placing our human rationality above Torah. We should study Torah ,including what our spiritual geniuses have had to say about it. The answer is there. There is even help for dealing with our thoughts and emotions which are trying to lead us the wrong way.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Flom:
Parshas Shemos

"Whoa !! I think my days of doing favors for
others are over!! I helped him big time, and that's
what he does in return?!

Moshe (Moses)was raised in the house of Pharoah,
yet because he empathized with his fellow Jews, he
killed an Egyptian who was trying to kill a Jew. The
next day,he tried to stop two Jews from fighting.
Instead of appreciating his good intentions and that
he saved a life the day before, they informed Pharoah
that he killed an Egyptian.As a result he became a
fugitive from Pharoah.(Shemos 2:11-15) Despite his
frustrating entre into Jewish communal life, Moshe
spent the rest of his life helping Bnai Yisroel.

Although receiving gratitude is great motivation,
doing what's right in the eyes of G-d is our greatest
impetus for doing good deeds!!

Have a great Shabbos!!

Rabbi Chaim Flom

Dear Moshe,(This is also for Rob & Bracha)
I'm sorry that I wasn't able to respond right away, but I'm on the road (America).
You wrote :
"Rav Flom,
I echo your sentiments with qualification. Perhaps you could clarify. My issue does not concern gratitude per se, but it concerns how people should treat one another despite gratitude.
1. Jews betraying Jews to goyim. This is exactly what happened to Moshe Rabbienu. He was betrayed by fellow Jews to Pharo.
2. Jews betraying Jews to Jews.
3. Goyim betraying Jews.
a) Should we roll over and continue to do good to Jews and goyim who do us harm and trust that HaShem will intervene?
b) Should we take some limited action to protect ourselves?
c) Should we fight back to win our case? "

Basically, I think the following is the guideline : First of all, if someone IS HARMING someone, that person should certainly try stopping it. "Turning the other cheek" (aside from the fact that they don't really do it) is not a Jewish concept. Avraham was the greatest baal chessed, yet had no problem fighting to get Lot (his nephew) back. The Rishonim say that that if someone hits me and I hit him back on the spot, even if I am not concerned that he will beat me up more, it is not called nekama if I hit him back. (I'm not saying you must hit him back.)
AFTER THE FACT, i.e. the danger is over, the perpetrator must be dealt with. (If it something that should get malkus or misa --lashes or death from court--it must be done.)

The issue I raised about Moshe was really psychological,as Tzivy pointed out. Aside from Dosson & Aviram, Moshe had no problem with anyone else, yet most people would have said "I've had enough of communal life".If I would have been Moshe, I probably would have been pretty frustrated seeing Dosson & Aveiram. However, it is pretty lousy living a life of pent-up frustration and anger, so we all have to learn how to "get on with life" if we were wronged and are unable to do anything about it.
Actually, legally, especially before Matan Torah, I'm not sure what punishment a court could have given Dosson & Aviram. Today, communities have to deal with whatever means they have with malshinim.
As far as davening goes : of course we daven and we say "velemalshinim.." but we also daven for parnassa and no one says that the food will fly on your plate, or when we say "refaainu -healing" that we can't go to a doctor. We must realize however,that when the doctor does heal us that he was a shliach -messenger (even unknowingly) from Hashem. [There is much more to be said about the doctor topic, but that isn't for now.]

As far as Goyim, (and I saw from some of the responses that Arabs is what is on people's minds), who themselves have have not harmed us: Chabdeihu vechashdeihu--honor them and suspect them. Obviously, if an Arab does something bad, it must be dealt with appropriately. However, for the Arab who didn't harm you: all people are made Betzelem Elokim. That does not mean you have to think that they are your best friend, never be naive, but if you see an Arab on the street etc. you must be courteous.

I must go, and I hope this has been helpful.
Good Shabbos.
Rabbi Flom

Dear Rosemary,
That was exactly my point. Our emotions have a very strong pull in our lives, but we must make sure that that it doesn't cloud what the Torah demands of us.
Take care.
Rabbi Flom

Great! I am glad I have that right. I find it very helpful to get such affirmation. Thanks. Of course learning we are mistaken in something is also helpful as it points us in the right direction (or at least less in the wrong direction or way of doing something, though learning from our mistakes can be tough going sometimes. Then we need to remember that a mistake is just a mistake and is not definitive of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Flom:
Dear Rosemary,
That was exactly my point. Our emotions have a very strong pull in our lives, but we must make sure that that it doesn't cloud what the Torah demands of us.
Take care.
Rabbi Flom