Names play a prominent part in the Torah. Avraham, Yitzchak and Ya'akov all had their name either altered by HaShem or chosen through Heavenly decree. Indeed, it is believed to this day that a child's name is decreed in Heaven.

COuld someone please tell me how the name 'Yehudit' became popular as a Jewish name, when the first reference to a Yehudit comes in Parashat Toledot (Bereishit 26:34) and she was the wife of Esav and the daughter of a Hittite (both enemies of the Jews)?

Yehudit (Sephardic) or Yehudis (Ashkenazic pronunciation) was the person who fed the Greek governor cheese and wine, and then killed him. Therefore, it appears that the same name that you're referring to, was also used by a Jewish heroine.

There is a similarity between that Yehudis story and the story of Yael, the Kenite, who killed Sisera, whom Barak (husband of Devora the prophetess) had been battling.

It seems unclear whether Yael was Jewish. And if she was Jewish, there are some yichud problems intrinsic to the story, if not other problems with exactly how Sisera had become so exhausted lying with his head on her lap. That it may be easier to presume she was not Jewish, although the Kenites are descended from Yisro, and Yisro converted apparently before Mattan Torah, which might somehow include his descendents.

And I think there is also a twinge of similarity between the Yehudis in your story and Shalomis, the wife of the Israelite man who was being harassed by the Egyptian whom Moshe Rabbeinu killed. That she was very friendly to everyone, saying Shalom to everyone, and this brought her undesirable attention and familiarity with the Egyptian men.

So, no disrespect to any rightous Jewish women who have been given such a lovely name as Yehudis or Yael, but its not clear that these names are meant to recall Jewish woman or all the behaviors recorded in their predecessor namesake's actions and personal sacrifices for the klal.

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Originally posted by Sam-:
Yehudit (Sephardic) or Yehudis (Ashkenazic pronunciation) was the person who fed the Greek governor cheese and wine, and then killed him. Therefore, it appears that the same name that you're referring to, was also used by a Jewish heroine.

so how did it get from a bas hitite married to to esav up to the yehudis that killed the greek governor (possibly the greek governor was a decendant of esav??)

You're assuming (a) that the only Yehudis before this was Esav's wife and (b) that anyone called Yehudis thereafter is named for Esav's wife.

Quote "It seems unclear whether Yael was Jewish. And if she was Jewish, there are some yichud problems intrinsic to the story, if not other problems with exactly how Sisera had become so exhausted lying with his head on her lap. That it may be easier to presume she was not Jewish, although the Kenites are descended from Yisro, and Yisro converted apparently before Mattan Torah, which might somehow include his descendents"

See Horios 10b that learns from Yael, that great is a sin for the sake of G-d (over here was to save Klal Yisrael) as a Mitzvah done not for his sake. There seems to be a Heter of a sin for the sake of G-d (which I presume is from a Halacha L’Moshe M’Sinai that was brought to our Mesorah through this story. The Gemarah gives the condition that she cannot have any benefit from the act (The good of the wicked is bad to the righteous, so she didn’t enjoy the action one bit.) See the Gemarah that Darshen’s that Yael can be compared to the Mothers (Sarah, Rivkah, Rachal, Leah)

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Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
You're assuming (a) that the only Yehudis before this was Esav's wife and (b) that anyone called Yehudis thereafter is named for Esav's wife.

i did not say either of these things.

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See Horios 10b that learns from Yael,

Dear Rav Chaim:

In order for there to be mitzvos and sins, does that mean that Gemara considers Yael to be Jewish?

Are all Kenites considered Jews?

And how can you reconcile this principle of a sin for the sake of Hashem being meritorios with either the explanation of Tzelofchad's own sin (apparently he was the one who gathered wood to wake up the Jewish people who were becoming lax to Shabbos) and the principle which explains why for example pig milk is treif, since only treif can come from treif - no good can come from a sin?

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Originally posted by MK Fink:

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
You're assuming (a) that the only Yehudis before this was Esav's wife and (b) that anyone called Yehudis thereafter is named for Esav's wife.

i did not say either of these things.

My apologies if I misunderstood you.

Michael Lewis, here's another name for you to think about: "Yishmael" both a Rabbi mentioned in the Gemorah; and the son of Hagar.

The commentary seems to indicate that Yishmael son of Hagar did repent and was by Avraham Avinu's side, both one of the young men who accompanied Avraham and Yitzchak to the Akeida, and who was with Avraham when he died.

Do you think we can maybe (Moby?) extrapolate that Rabbi Yishmael's father or perhaps whoever named whomever he was named for, thought that this teshuva made him worthy?

And similarly that we can extrapolate that even if the first Yehudis was not known as a benchmark of goodness, that there must have been a tradition of her teshuva, and thus hers became a popular name?

Is the name of Yehoshua's wife, Rachav, seen as having been reflected in generations following? I think she exemplifies a certain amount of teshuva as well.

Quote "In order for there to be mitzvos and sins, does that mean that Gemara considers Yael to be Jewish?

Are all Kenites considered Jews?"

It would seem that way. It says that some of them sat on the Sanhedrin.

Quote "how can you reconcile this principle of a sin for the sake of Hashem being meritorios with either the explanation of Tzelofchad's own sin (apparently he was the one who gathered wood to wake up the Jewish people who were becoming lax to Shabbos) and the principle which explains why for example pig milk is treif, since only treif can come from treif - no good can come from a sin?"

The Treif milk coming out of a pig is really a Drasha that it’s Ussur, and the "reason of the Mitzvah" (Tameh D’Kra) I never heard. It probably came from someone’s Drasha on Shabbos, so I don’t think I need to reconcile it. We do see a concept as a positive Mitzvah knocks off a negitive Mitzvah (Aseh Doche Lo Saseh)

The question from Tzalafchad I like a lot (even though we’re not forced to link all Agadata together)

I think the answer is (it’s a Chidush) that the condition in the Gemarah for a Aveirah L’Shma (sin for the sake for heaven) is the one who commits it cannot benefit from the sin. (Rav Chaim Shmulevitz makes a difference beyween sins for the sake of heaven before the giving of the Torah, which are allowed even with benefits, like some wives that were taken that was technically Ussur, and after Matan torah you cannot benefit) Thus, if Tzilafchud didn’t benefit from his Malacha, then it would be a Malacha Shein Tzricha L’Gufa (a Malacha that is not needed for it’s own use, but for an alternative reason, like in this case to wake up the Jews) and wouldn’t have transgressed working on Shabbos. So once he benefited from the sin, it was no longer eligible for being a sin for the sake of heaven.

Quote "You're assuming (a) that the only Yehudis before this was Esav's wife and (b) that anyone called Yehudis thereafter is named for Esav's wife."

See Shabbos 12b D"H Shavna and Kesuvos 104b Tosfos D"H "Shnei" that if a Rasha had a name, then we don’t name that name (as it says in Yuma 38b) presumingly even if not named directly after them (That’s why tosfos takes for granted that nobody would have the same name as a Rasha in Tanach). Unless there was another person, contemporary or earlier that has the same name (like Tosfos points out, that if one "Avraham" becomes a Rasha, we don’t stop calling people Avraham because of it.

I would like to suggest, that it really was not her real name, but only put on her to convince Yitzchock that she denied the deity of Avodah Zara. Since we know it was only a show and not her real essence, so we don’t take it as her name not to name after her, but rather we accept the concept, of denying Avodah Zarah as a good name

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Thus, if Tzilafchud didn’t benefit from his Malacha, then it would be a Malacha Shein Tzricha L’Gufa (a Malacha that is not needed for it’s own use, but for an alternative reason, like in this case to wake up the Jews) and wouldn’t have transgressed working on Shabbos. So once he benefited from the sin, it was no longer eligible for being a sin for the sake of heaven.

Wow - that is a powerful chidush! Yasher Koach!

How do we know that Tzelofchad benefitted from the malacha?

I might think that he _gathered_ wood in public view, and ignoring warnings, but would not have lit or added fuel to a fire on Shabbos, and might have refused to benefit from that wood himself.

Could he have accomplished his "wake-up" purpose without seeing the punishment carried out?

And my actual big question on Tzelofchad:

If he was the ONLY transgressor of that second Shabbos, and if there were ZERO transgressions during the first Shabbos, was that perhaps the closest the Jewish people achieved to keeping TWO Shabbosim in a row, by which we would immediately merit Moshiach?

And since he probably kept this part of Shabbos well prior to the first communal Shabbos, I wanted to know what Hashem would not have cut out a piece of his historical good Shabbos observance and transplanted it into his 2nd Shabbos record, so that the Jewish People could have the benefit of 2 Shabbosim in a row...

The only drawback I could see would be that Tzelofchad himself would have been forever scarred by this surgical transplant...

Thus for the sake of 1 scar's minor blemish within 1 righteous person, Hashem knows that we have the potential to do even better, and Moshiach waits.



Perhaps kashrus meat inspectors for glatt meat are similarly stringent about little innocuous scar blemishes?

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Originally posted by MK Fink:

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
Yehudit (Sephardic) or Yehudis (Ashkenazic pronunciation) was the person who fed the Greek governor cheese and wine, and then killed him. Therefore, it appears that the same name that you're referring to, was also used by a Jewish heroine.

so how did it get from a bas hitite married to to esav up to the yehudis that killed the greek governor (possibly the greek governor was a decendant of esav??)

Perhaps this is an explanation, where Yehudi means "Jew", therefore, "Yehudis" means "Jewess".

quote:

Perhaps this is an explanation, where Yehudi means "Jew", therefore, "Yehudis" means "Jewess".

Of course I may be wrong, but from my understanding- "Yehudi" a word meaning "Jew" has no place in lashon kodesh, but rather derives it roots in Ivris. So I dont believe "Yehudis" would mean "Jewess" but rather must have a different etymology...

So i looked it up.

Yehudis would be the equivilant of "Judith" in English- which is the feminin equivilant of Judah. So in Hebrew, Yehudis should be the equivilant of Yehudah.

ספורנו: על כן קראה שמו יהודה: … ונראה שהיו כל אלה שמות של קדמונים כמו שמצינו קודם לזה יהודית בת בארי וכן שמואל בן עמיהוד קודם לשמואל הנביא, והיו בוחרים מהשמות הקודמים את הנופלים על לשון המאורע. (בראשית כט:לה)

Sforno: Therefore she called his name Yehuda: … It seems that all these were names from earlier generations, such as Yehudit daughter of Be'eri, and similarly Shmuel son of Amihud before the prophet Shmuel, and they chose from the earlier names those which reflected the events of the time. (Bereshit 29:35)

The word "Yehudi" is used throughout the Talmud and onwards to mean "Jewish" and "Yehudis" is the feminine form (as in "Das Yehudis" the Jewish Religion). A Jew is called "Ish Yehudi" (as with Mordechai).

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"Yehudi", a word that meaning Jew has no place in lashon kodesh, but rather derives its roots from ivris (ivrit).

Would you explain please your understanding of the difference between "lashon kodesh" and "ivrit"? Maybe I am misreading this statement. Ivrit is Hebrew, yes? Hebrew is the holy language (lashon kodesh), yes?

I understand the ambiguity that exists with respect to the various scripts (ktav ivri and ktav ashurit, etc.), but this is the first time that I have read that a distinction exists between Hebrew (ivrit) and lashon kodesh (the holy tongue).

Maybe as aside, you could comment as to how Aramaic fits into this - as the "angels" cannot understand Aramaic.

Anyone is welcome to comment to correct any misperceptions I have regarding the distinctions.

Thank you,
Liorah

Just some thoughts about the Hebrew root from which the word yehudi/t arises (hey-vav-dalet) and what it means in terms of avodah. This root forms the basis for the name of the sefirah hod as well, so likely the term yehudi/t is referring to the particular "soul power" associated with this sefirah that is integral to the "Jewish" soul. That soul power is temimut. There is a good discussion of "the importance of being earnest" at The Inner Dimension website that pertains to this soul power and how it (temimut) is the inner core of all the sefirot together (in an achdut of sorts?) This soul power - the ability to unify all the sefirot in completeness - may be the underlying message to the name Yehudi/t.

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Originally posted by lori:
Would you explain please your understanding of the difference between "lashon kodesh" and "ivrit"? Maybe I am misreading this statement. Ivrit is Hebrew, yes? Hebrew is the holy language (lashon kodesh), yes?

I think the distinction is between what you and I know as Lashon Kodesh (the language of the Bible, Mishna etc.) and what in English is called "Modern Hebrew" which is the Ivrit being referred to. There are many words in Modern Hebrew that are derived from Lashon Kodesh but, to cope with the modern world, have taken on a different meaning.

In any event, as I implied in my previous posting Bracha was incorrect.