Bereshit 4:1-5, 10-15
"And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived and bore Cain, and said: 'I have gotten a man with the help of HaShem.' And again she bore his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto HaShem. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And HaShem had respect unto Abel and to his offering; but unto Cain and to his offering He had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell"[...]"And He said: 'What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto Me from the ground. And now cursed art thou from the ground, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand. When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a wanderer shalt thou be in the earth.' And Cain said unto HaShem: 'My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the land; and from Thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer in the earth; and it will come to pass, that whosoever findeth me will slay me.' And HaShem said unto him: 'Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.' And HaShem set a sign for Cain, lest any finding him should smite him.

It's pretty understandable, Kayin's anger and depression. Who wouldn't be angry and depressed if one's best effort at showing appreciation and gratitude, was spurned?

Kayin's problem isn't with G-d or with Hevel. Kayin's problem is that instead of taking responsible for his own feelings and turn to G-s with a simple question: "Why, what's wrong?" he looks down and inward, at his own anger, depression, feelings of rejection and fear of inadequacy, away from G-d. And because he feels rejected and inadequate, he feels lonely - to alleviate that loneliness he seeks out his brother. But instead of alleviating his pain, the sight of Hevel flips Kayin's mind, and Hevel becomes the reason why he feels rejected by G-d. It's more than he can bear and in his anger and fear, he murders his brother.

Was Kayin's anger and fear wrong? Or his offering? No. But the way he dealt with the situation was.

Kayin went first - offering to G-d the best he had from his crop. The Hevel did the same - only with a twist - to me the 'he also' implies that Hevel offered grain, fruit and such, just as Kayin, but then Hevel added to the offering of grain and fruit some of the "firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof".

Seeing Hevel's offering, so much more abundant than his own, Kayin is suddenly struck by fear that G-d won't accept his offering - this is the "but unto Cain and to his offering He had not respect" - it's all in Kayin's mind! (Another thing - fat burns very well - fresh vegetables don't burn well, just creates a lot of smoke - so Kayin was really set up from get-go. There was no way Kayin could 'win'.)

To G-d Kayin's offering was fine, just as fine as his brother's, which to me is implied in the events that follow the murder. When Kayin realizes what he has done, he exiles himself from G-d "Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the land; and from Thy face shall I be hid". There was never any need for that, G-d never said that - He said that Kayin would be exiled from farming the earth, not from G-d's presence. On the contrary, when Kayin adds to his punishment that he will be outlawed and that every man will be against him, G-d says 'Not so, I will make sure that no one kills you for this!' So in the eyes of G-d Kayin's offering was ok, Kayin was ok.

But to Kayin it wasn't good enough. What he had to offer wasn't good enough compared to Hevel's, and the price Kayin paid for his low self-esteem was even more fear, the loss of his brother and the self-inflicted loss of his G-d.

Poor Kayin!

Fearful and shame-ridden, he turns away from the only source that could have saved him and his brother - G-d - Had he turned towards G-d with his feelings of shame, fear, inadequacy, envy, anger and rejection, he would have found a G-d ready to say: 'Not so, you are my child just as much as Hevel'.

Shabbat Shalom!
Dov

First of all, Kayin's offering reminded Hashem of Adam's transgression in the Garden, so he rejected it. The ground was already cursed. The reason Kayin did not go to Hashem with his problems was because it was his problems that kept him from Hashem. I don't believe that Hashem really liked Kayin, I mean, he loved Kayin but he didn't like him. We should be careful not to empathize with Kayin, and to accept the providence of Hashem. Also, Hashem said that he will have Mercy on whoever he wants to have Mercy. Their generation was still so close to Hashem that they both suffered because of it. And jealousy was a key issue. Remember, Hashem did show mercy to Kayin and allowed him to live. He could have punished him by killing him on the spot in return but he didn't. He allowed him to live.

quote:

First of all, Kayin's offering reminded Hashem of Adam's transgression in the Garden, so he rejected it.

Where in the text do you find this? Or from what in the text do you derive this?

quote:

The reason Kayin did not go to Hashem with his problems was because it was his problems that kept him from Hashem.

This is a circular argument.

quote:

Also, Hashem said that he will have Mercy on whoever he wants to have Mercy.

Where do you find this?

quote:

they both suffered because of it

Who? Kayin and Hevel or Kayin and G-d?

I am not a Torah Scholar so I may be wrong but I saw that Adam was punished for his transgression of eating the fruit by being expelled from the garden and having to till the soil. Since Kayin's offering was a product of tilling the soil I thought it was rejected. Hevel's offering was not a product of tilling the soil so his offering was more pleasing to Hashem and therefore accepted.
The second part doesn't matter that much. So maybe it is a circular argument, whatever that is.
When I said that Hashem said he will have Mercy on whoever he wants to have Mercy I was only going by memory of a passage in the Torah but I have no clue where exactly it is written or what context it is in. It is not written in black and white in this weeks torah portion, I know that. When I wrote "both" I meant Kayin and Hevel and maybe their parents.

One way to look at the narrative:

Adam and Eve do not take responsibility for their acts. Kayin on the other hand (at least according to one of the three explainations in the midrash), finally does recognize he has sinned and deserves punishment beyond what HaShem actually gives him.
The text does not say why kayin's offering was rejected. This leaves it up to the mepharshim. I would also like to know where the writer finds the idea that somehow fruits were inferior to animals. (The Ibn Ezra does say that animals were more appropriate in the torat hasod of karbonot.)

I did see a nice note in the Klei Yakir. The reason that Kayin got upset was that he brought the korban first and hevel was just imitating him.

Aryeh Shore

quote:

I did see a nice note in the Klei Yakir. The reason that Kayin got upset was that he brought the korban first and hevel was just imitating him.

Which would go nicely together with my thought that Hevel brought the same as Kayin and in addition from his flocks.

The natural law that fat burns nicely while fresh veggies just creates a lot of smoke...

Dov

Why do you say Poor Kayin? Why not Poor Hevel?

I can't imagine Hevel going to Kayin to get stuff for his offering.

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
Why do you say Poor Kayin? Why not Poor Hevel?

Because my drash is not focused on Hevel - it's focused on Kayin, who, to my mind, was tripped and tricked by his own mind. Why pity the dead? I am not justifying Kayin's action of murdering his brother. I am just trying to see the story from another angle, to make it more pleasing, acceptable and reasonable to the mind.(MY mind that is).

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
I can't imagine Hevel going to Kayin to get stuff for his offering.

Maybe he didn't, there are many ways he could have gotten material for his offering - I am only putting forward an idea built on the *[u]he also[/u]* - which as I state, to me implies that Hevel offered from his flocks in addition to something, it lays closest to hand to think that he offered the same things as Kayin and from his flocks in addition.

I find nothing in the text, that explain the events. That is all.

Dov

I don't think that hashems rejection of Hayin offer was interrelated to Adamas eating the fruit.
The reason I think that the offering was not placed in the same realm of Hevels is because Hevel was a shepard, therefore the sheperd does what? He doesnt stay stationary in one spot yet moves his flocks to different pastures. Therefore when he takes his flocks what else does he take with him?
The emanantion of the breathe of Hashem. Therefore his place in the world was different than Hayins because he would be bringing this emanation or breathe forward in a different way , on a different level than Hayin.
Hayin therefore answered to the lower realm of soul through arrogance and rather than accepting G-d's will,acted unG-dly.

Also I think that when Kayin was put into exile and Hashem said No one will kill you it wasnt because he accepted his offering but rather was paving a way to reach Hashem within Kayins Galut. The responsibility to finding a way out of his "Mental turmoil" was of course to find Hashem in exile.

Anyway, getting back to your original question. What is bothering Kayin? He was wroth because he was jealous to the point that he was contemplating murder. And his countenance had fallen because he was even wondering what his punishment would be for doing the crime.

quote:

Anyway, getting back to your original question. What is bothering Kayin? He was wroth because he was jealous to the point that he was contemplating murder. And his countenance had fallen because he was even wondering what his punishment would be for doing the crime.

The question is RHETORICAL, and a simple word play on a 'question' used in connection with Rashi.

Dov

I had to look up the word Rhetorical in the dictionary to find out what it means. I guess it means a question that is not supposed to be answered. My dad has a business called "Able" so that is a good omen.