The essay on fundaments by the Ramchal states:

"G-d is perfect in every way, having absolutely no imperfection whatsoever. He does not depend on anything else, and is not affected by anything whatsoever....Nothing that applies to the physical relates to God at all. He is divorced from any boundary or limit, from every association, and from every natural law... The main point of creation was that God wanted to create man, who would then have the task of attaching himself to God, and thereby enjoy the true good..."

G-d has no needs and He does not need us. All the commandments are only for our own good. How can we repay Him for our lives and all the good he gives us?

The verse in this weeks parsha states: Speak to Aaron and say to him: "When you light the lamps, the seven lamps shall cast their light toward the face of the menorah." (Bamidbar 8:2)

Bamidbar Rabbah 15:5 explains: "Israel said to the Holy One, " Master of the universe, do You ask us to give light before You? Are You not the light of the world ... ?" The Holy One replied, "It is not that I need you, but rather the purpose of the menorah is to illuminate before Me as I have illuminated for you. For what purpose? To raise you in front of the nations who will say, 'See how Israel illuminates before the One Who gives light to the whole world!

"This may be illustrated by a parable. A person, capable of seeing, traveled together with a blind man. The seeing man turned to the blind one saying, "When we enter the house, light this candle for me and give me light." The blind man replied, "While on the road you supported me, and until we entered the house you accompanied me, and now you tell me to light this candle and give you light?" The other man replied, "In order that you should not be under an obligation to me for having accompanied you on the journey, therefore I told you to light before me."

Thus, the man capable of seeing is Hashem ... and the blind man is Israel ... Hashem led Israel and lit the way for them as it says, "and Hashem went before them in the day ..." But as soon as the Mishkan was erected, Hashem called Moshe and said, "Illuminate before Me as it says, 'When you light up the candles!"

Lighting the Menorah for Hashem who is the light of the world reveals the absurdity of our life situation. Yet it is precisely here where we can reveal and express the depth of our gratitude and the purity of our service to our Creator. The only thing we can do for G-d is to thank him. Lighting a candle for the light of the universe can only be to thank Him and to sing His praise.

It is sad that G-d doesn't need us. I always thought that he needed me.

B"H

Raybin,

There is a difference between saying, "G-d needs a person," and "G-d loves a person."
For while G-d does not stand in need of us (He not lacking in any good thing), it is still true that He loves His creations enormously, and takes an interest in our every concern.

The fact that G-d does not need us is the proof of how much he loves us. Our lives are given to us as pure chesed and only because G-d loves us. Hashem has no alternative motives!

Rav Shlomo Carlebach once said it is impossible to be a good Jew if one does not understand how much G-d needs him/ her.

I provide my children with food, home, education, etc. But I need them every bit as much as they need me.

I actually very much enjoyed your thoughts, Rav Mitterhoff, and don't want to sound contradictory, but maybe there are two ways to look at it?

B"H

Jacob,

Perhaps what Rav Carlebach z"l really meant to say, when saying "G-d needs you," is that "G-d loves you."

Although a man might "need" his children, this shows our own insecurity, insufficiency, etc.
G-d, I am sure, is beyond such inadequacies.

David

I think that we can make a distinction between the essence of Hashem, which is beyond our comprehension, and how Hashem relates to us, in a way that we can understand,

Hashem in essence is complete and doesn't need anything. But we can't relate to that. So Hashem appears to us in a way to relate to us that as if he needs our relationship, though in essence he doesn't need it by definition.

Can G-d change?

I don't believe G-d can change, but He can change His mind.

I also think that there are different kinds of needs. If we are to say that HaSh-m needs us ( as in the text book definition of essential needs (water, food, etc.) then clearly we would be incorrect in saying He needed us.

But what about other needs? Emotional needs? I think it is not out of line to say that He "needs" us in that respect. Why else does he look to and fro for a righteous man? He created us for His pleasure--was He not in need of pleasure?

Also what about loneliness?

As sad as it sounds, I also think He "needs " (if that is even the word) some people more than others. He certainly takes far more interest in some than others. He was pretty fond of David Melech--I doubt my place in history is quite so essential and illustrious.
Y.

Question?

Earlier David ben-Avraham suggested that a man's need of his children shows his own insecurity and inadequacy. I cannot believe this.

Carlebach's quote was in reference to parents who (Chas v'shalom) tell their children they don't need them. Such a child will grow up and say "G-d does not need me." How can I be a good Jew if I don't understand that G-d needs me? (There is a booklet called 'Get High' with a variety of quotes from Carlebach, I'm quoting from memory please forgive any slight mistakes).

Certainly, G-d's essence is above our understanding and "I H' have not changed" (Malachi 3:6). But just as a Father is eternally attached to his children since he has placed a piece of himself into them by means of his semen, so to has H' placed a piece of himself into us by way of his breathe. (Bereshit 2:7 see also Tanya of the Alter Rebbe). Thus we also have inside of us a piece of the infinent. And yet we are also nothing and as if devoid of existence apart from Hakadosh Baruch-hu.

Maybe we'll never fully understand such a beatiful mystery.

G-d has the ability to do anything. So he can change if he wants to.

quote:

G-d has the ability to do anything. So he can change if he wants to.

I think it may be on the level of a Principle of Faith that Hashem is Unchanging....

Being above time might have that effect - or impact rather.

To reconcile this unchanging aspect with some phrases in Chumash such as by Noach and several times through our travels in the desert to have an expression of re-considering whether to have Created the world or the Jewish people... can get quite interesting.

R. Mitt., you began:
"The essay on fundaments by the Ramchal states:
"G-d is perfect in every way, having absolutely no imperfection whatsoever. He does not depend on anything else, and is not affected by anything whatsoever....Nothing that applies to the physical relates to God at all. He is divorced from any boundary or limit, from every association, and from every natural law..."


This sounds like Aristotle. Didn't he talk about an unmoved mover?
Has Ramchal contracted a goyische kopf?
I know you quoted Bamidbar Rabbah, but couldn't one find other quotes that show that God has at least one need:
for relationship? What I mean is , since "there is nothing other than Him"(Deut.4:39), God needs an other.
I remember that R. Akiva said that "Song of Songs is holy of holies." This is about an INTENSE relationship between God and Israel.
I mean, it's all throughout the Tanakh: "... God is one"- He's "one-ly"(i.e., lonely) so in the next verse He tells us to love Him with all our....
So this is all about God's need. We say, for God's sake, not for our sake. If God created us and put us into this world(that is filled with suffering) for our sake then this would be the very definition of diabolic; but God doing this for His sake would be the very opposite. This desire of God for relationship is the only justification for all the suffering. A God who isn't lonely(i.e., the Aristotelian-Ramchalian-Mitterdorfian God) would only deserve my contempt because how dare It subject me to so much suffering. Spare me Its "love"!
I think that this need of God for relationship and our gratification of it is the subtext of Tanakh, which occasionally becomes THE text, as in the Song of Songs.
I will joyously suffer if I know that I'm satisfying God's need. Otherwise, Judaism is just another name for Aristotles-unmoved-mover-ism.

Ouch.
As I said earlier, there are different classifications of needs. Aside from that fact, I believe that the sheer vastness of G-d defies all "boxes" entitled "needs".

Relationship and covenant may be far better contexts in which to describe the arrangement between HaSh-m and Israel.

Yocheved

Mr. Goff,
I am not saying that I disagree with your interpretation, only that I find it somehow lacking in a full and accurate assessment of the relationship.

Shalom

Hashem (kadosh baruj hu) is beyond all, " I am Hashem Your G-d " Shemot 20:2 Dev. 5:6. We exist because of his wish. We need ein sof or by open the doors that fullfills our needs through our acceptance and compliance of kabbalah Torah from Mouth to Mouth ( Moises, Blessed Memory, receiving Oral Law). Hshem allows us to accept our needs and to work our way out of Mitzraim. " But the path of just man is like the gleam of sunlight, that shines more brightly until the height of moonday " Misheli 4:18. Above all there is a light beam that connect us to our bereshit-root, the root that fills our needs.

Lej Leshalom

Yes, you are quite right. I refer back to the comment I made earlier about defining needs, however. There are different levels of them. H-ashem still "needed" Moshe (or Moises, in Spanish, if you prefer) in His dealings with our people inthe desert near Sinai--else we might ALL have died right there!
Shalom, Senor Ochoa,
Yocheved Broscova-Guerra

Tamuz 1, 5766

Shalom Aleijem

I would like to think that all about our existence as a chosen Am Israel, Eretz Israel , Neshama Israel , ought to be the possibility of nurturing a relationship that in some cases achieve some truy G-dly connections as our pious teachers and just Rebbes deep Torah schoolars did and stand for even defying death as Rabbi Akiba of Blessed Memory. Now, The fear of G-d is the main need we have to spark the wisdom ( Hockma ) of our creator above all created living species. We can encounter in The Torah many divine remarks directing How the fear of G-d sparks up the principle of faith and the educational steps forward to accept and comply with de 613 commandments ( do Mitzvot, do not Mitzvot) and that the most precious (valuable, and willing to accept) stage for Moshe was that out of simple faith he recognized the need to know, feel, and pass to all Am Israel " The fear of G-d" as the most acceptable tool to bring Haolam haba H-shem Will to this physical world. I advice you to read a very good message from Rav. Joe Markel from the web page http://groups.yaho.com/group/kabbalahfervor/
called " And Moses said do not Fear ".

Sorry Senor Ochoa,
Page not found by Google. Can you resend it, double checking the address?