Two questions came up after my kids told me all about what they read in the Little Midrash.

If Yoseif knew his brothers had come to Egypt, each one through a different gate, by reading their names on the logs in which they signed in, what was it that he did to impress them at the first meal with them? Could it have been as simple as knowing their names?

and

Since Yoseif kept all the mitzvos, this meal was likely a full meal with full bentching. Even if Reuvein led bentching, as the oldest, despite Yoseif being in a high position, since the brothers were at least 10 men there, didn't they notice when Yoseif stood up for the Elokeinu part of the response to bentching?

B"H

Rob,

Joseph (Yoseif) was seventeen years old when he was sold to the Ishmaelites by his brothers. Yet, while he was still living with them, he saw and took notice of the seating arrangement of all the brothers when they sat down to eat a meal. The eldest, Rueven, sat alongside the second eldest, Shimon, and Shimon beside Levi, and so forth.

After his brothers had gone down into Egypt and were invited to eat a meal at Joseph's house, and not yet realising that their host was their nearest of kin, Joseph purposely sat them down in the exact same seating arrangement as was customary in their own home. They, thinking that Joseph was a total stranger and having no way of knowing their ages, thought that Joseph knew this by way of his divining cup.

As for your second question, the Talmud (Berakhot) says that the Birkas Hamazon (the format used for bentching) has in it three parts. The first part, על הארץ, was enacted by Moses. The second part was enacted by Joshua. The third part, על ירושלי×, was enacted by David and Solomon. (The fourth part, הטוב והמטיב, is only a later addition enacted in Yavne after the destruction of Beter in 120 C.E.) So, in this regard, Joseph and his brothers were not yet obligated to use any set format (nusach), as it just did not exist.

David

B"H David

Regarding your response to the second point:

Do you agree that many say that the Avos knew of the future mitzvos to be given and abided by them?

Hence reporting that the current format for bentching was not given until later doesn't preclude the 12 Shevatim from knowing them and practicing by them, right?


Regarding your response to the first point:

So the amazing feat was the seating arrangements and not just knowing their names?

I think there is something else in another midrash which speaks to Yoseif knowing which brothers were full brothers with the same brother.

And presumably knowing which name went with which face is part of telling each one where to sit, and added to the amazement.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Do you agree that many say that the Avos knew of the future mitzvos to be given and abided by them?
Hence reporting that the current format for bentching was not given until later doesn't preclude the 12 Shevatim from knowing them and practicing by them, right?

Well, Rob, obviously, this has not always been the case. I mean about the Avos (fathers) knowing of the future mitzvos to be given and abiding by them. For example, the Torah prohibits a man taking two sisters as his wives. Yet, Yaakov, our forefather, did this. So, too, we find (according to the Targum of Yonasan Ben Uzziel - Bamidbar) that Amram, the father of Moses, divorced his wife, Yocheved, after she had given birth to Aaron and Miriam. She then went and married Elitzaphan ben Parnach, chief of the tribe of Issachar, by whom she had an additional two children, viz., Eldad and Medad. She was then divorced from her second husband, and returned to her first husband, Amram, by whom she then had Moses, our lawgiver. Now we all know that, according to the Torah, once a woman is divorced from her first husband and remarries another, she is not permitted to return unto the first in the eventuality that she is divorced again.

So ask yourself, "didn't the Avos perform all the injunctions of our Torah before it was given?" The answer, quite frankly, is not always.

As for bentching at that time, it was not yet finalised as it is today.

I do, however, have one small correction to make. It is in Berakhot 48b where we find the different stages in the development of our "Birkas Hamazon."

The first part of our grace after meals, enacted by Moses, is ברכת הזן ("who giveth sustenance to all living things"). The second part of our grace after meals, enacted by Joshua, is ברכת הארץ ("the good land"). The third part of our grace after meals, enacted by David and Solomon, is ברכת ×™×¨×•×©×œ×™× ("who rebuildeth Jerusalem"). While the final part, added by the Sages of Yavne after 120 C.E., is ברכת הטוב והמטיב ("the good and the benevolent").

Sincerely,
David

B"H

POST SCRIPT:

Rob,

In the case of Yoseph and his brothers, we can still say that they performed the Torah and bentched after their meal. Afterall, the Torah says:
ואכלת ושבעת וברכת את יי' אלהיך על הארץ הטבה אשר נתן לך
Here, the Torah prescribes no fixed nusach when blessing G-d. It was sufficient to say, "Thank you, dear G-d, for this food," and he has already performed the command written in the Torah. The matter of "zimun" with three or ten persons, or more, are only rabbinic commandments. In this case, we have no indication whether or not they performed these commands, much less, even knew them.

David

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
I think there is something else in another midrash which speaks to Yoseif knowing which brothers were full brothers with the same brother.

And presumably knowing which name went with which face is part of telling each one where to sit, and added to the amazement.

Rob,

Yes, you are correct here.

The Targum of Yonasan ben Uzziel has the following account:

"Joseph took up the silver cup and began to clink it, as a diviner would do. He said: 'The sons of Leah will sit together on one side [of the table], viz., Rueven, Shimon, Levi Yehudah, Issachar and Zebulon.' He said: 'The sons of Zilpah will sit together on a different side [of the table],' etc. and, 'The sons of Bilhah will sit together on yet a different side.' He said: 'Benjamin has no mother, and I have no mother. We will sit together on one side [of the table].' "

We find a similar account in Midrash Rabba 92:5. There it says:

"He (Joseph) took up the goblet. He made himself as if he were smelling it, and then said: 'Yehudah, since he is king, will sit at the head [of the table]. Reuven, who is the firstborn, will sit next to him,' and so he did with all of them, seating each man according to his dignity and his importance. Benjamin was then left alone. He said: 'I do not have a mother, and this youth has no mother. When his mother gave birth to him, she died. Wherefore, let him come and put his head next to mine.' At this they were astonished!

Rashi, on Bereishis 43:33, carries a similar account:

They sat before him, the firstborn according to his age, and the youngest according to his youth, and the men looked at each other in astonishment.

the firstborn according to his age. He knocked his goblet and announced, "Reuven, Shimon, Levi, Yehudah, Issachar, and Zebulun, sons of one mother, sit in this order, which is the order of your births," and so [did he order] all of them. When he reached Benjamin, he said,"This one has no mother, and I have no mother. Let him sit beside me."

David