B"H

In Vayeishev, it recounts Yehuda getting married, and having Er, Onan, and Shelah after Yosef was sold. Onan gets married to Tamar, dies, and Er marries Tamar and then dies. After that, Tamar has Peretz by Yehuda.

In Vayigash Peretz's sons – Yehuda's grandsons – are listed among the 70 that went down to Mitzrayim. It also states that it had been 22 years since Yosef had been sold by his brothers.

I am trying to figure out three generations over 22 years:
* Joseph is sold
* Yehuda Marries
* Yehuda has Er, Onan, and Shelah (one generation)
* Er marries, dies
* Onan marries, dies
* Tamar has Peretz and Zerach (another generation)
* Peretz has Chetzron and Chamul (third generation)
* Yaakov et al go down to Mitzrayim

The obvious thing that occurred to me was that maybe the part in Vayeishev about Yosef's sale and Yehuda's marriage wasn't in chronological order. But Rashi points out that the cause-and-effect of Yosef's sale and Yehuda's "going down" in status and leaving his brothers. I don't dispute Rashi…

A related thought - if Er and Onan died as punishment for withholding children from Tamar, I would expect them to have each reached the age of responsibility, twenty years old. Of course things could have been different in those times.

I am not questioning the Torah, of course; it's a given that it is perfect. But I am looking for the pieces of the puzzle that makes it all fit together. I saw a reference to an explanation in "Seder Olam Rabbah" (chapter 1 or 2), but don't have that available.

Any help out there?

B"H
Dear Joseph,

We know that Jacob lived 147 years. His father, Isaac, begat him when he was aged 60. Isaac lived 180 years, and when he died, Jacob had already come back to the land of Canaan with his family after working twenty years with Laban in Syria. When Isaac died, Jacob was aged 120.
We know that Jacob served 20 years while under his father-in-law, Laban. He was given Leah only after working seven years. The remaining 13 years made him the father of eleven sons by four wives, the youngest of whom was Joseph. When Jacob left Laban, Joseph was only a baby.
Joseph was sold away into Egypt when he was a boy of 17. He rose before Pharaoh when he was aged 30. There were then 7 years of plenty, and 7 years of famine. It was during the 2nd year of famine when his fathers and brothers came down unto him. Jacob was at that time 130 years old. Deduct 2 years before the famine (Jacob was 128 years old). Deduct 7 years before the years of plenty, and deduct another 30 years from the time when Joseph first came to be viceroy over Egypt until the time of Joseph's birth (Jacob was 91 years old). Deduct 13 years when he became the father of Rueben (Jacob was 78 years old). Deduct 7 years more when Jacob first fled to Laban (Jacob was 71 years old).
Rueben was Jacob's firstborn, born of Leah, when Jacob was 78 years old. Levi was the third son of Jacob, also born of Leah. Add two years unto Jacob's life when Levi was born (Jacob was 80 years old).
Levi lived 137 years, and begat three sons and one daughter: Kahath, Merari, Gershon, and Yocheved (the mother of Moses) Yocheved grew up to marry Amram (Shemos 2:1). For Levi to have fathered his first born, it is given that he was aged 19 (Jacob would have been aged 99 years). Kahath lived 133 years, and was the father of Amram. For Kahath to have begat Amram, it is given that he was aged 19 (Jacob would have been 118 years old). For Amram to have begotten Miriam his firstborn, it is given that Amram was 19 years old (Jacob would have been 137 years, and living in Egypt during this time). Aaron was born no sooner than a year later at the earliest (Jacob aged appx. 138 years), while Moses born three years later at the earliest, since Aaron was older than Moses by three years (Jacob aged appx. 141 years). Moses grew up, and stood before Pharaoh when he was aged 80, which year of his life marked the end of Israel's captivity in Egypt. Jacob had already died, since as we said Jacob lived only 147 years. This would have been the scenario had Jacob's sons all fathered children at the earliest age of 19. With this calculation, if we were to go back in time, we would find that the children of Israel had only been in Egypt for 114 years!! (i.e., 80 years of Moses, + 23 years of Amram for him to have fathered Moses at the earliest which, we said, put Jacob at 141 years, + 11 years earlier when Jacob and his family first stepped foot into Egypt, altogether 114 years!) But obviously this did not happen. By tradition we learn that Yocheved, the daughter of Levi and the mother of Moses was born in Egypt, during her father's old age. This proves that there was a delay in marriages and in births, and that they did not always marry at the early age of 18. Their lives also overlapped with one another.

According to a Pirke Rebbi Eliezer, Levi was older than Joseph by six years. When Levi came down into Egypt with his family, he was already aged 45 years. In his old age, he begat Yocheved, the mother of Moses. Levi's total number of years that he had lived in Egypt was 92 years, and then he died at 137 years. His daughter, Yocheved (whom we said was born in Egypt), gave birth to Moses 38 years after her father had died. (She, too, was an aged woman.) That is, from the time of their going down into Egypt until the time of Moses' birth, there passed 130 years! Moses was aged 80 years when he brought Israel out of Egypt. These years when accumulated amount to 210 years. Servile bondage, however, did not happen unto Israel until Levi and his brothers had died.

Joseph lived 110 years, and when his family came unto him in Egypt he was already 39 years old. If we deduct 39 from 110 (the years in which the family of Jacob lived in ease under the shadow of Joseph's protective arm), we come up with 71 years. But actually there were more years of ease, since Levi had outlived Joseph by 21 years. (Remember, Levi was older than Joseph by six years, and Levi died at aged 137.) So there were a total of 92 years of ease. Bondage and affliction continued thereafter in Egypt for more than 118 years!

The 430 years mentioned in Shemos (Exodus) are the number of years that passed from the birth of Isaac until Israel's departure from Egypt.

I hope this helps you.
Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

quote:

from the time of their going down into Egypt until the time of Moses' birth, there passed 130 years!

Recall that it was also 130 years before Sheis (Seth) was born to Adam and Chava.

I did not know of this 130 year measure before reading this post. Is there any commentator who tells us a connection between these two measures?

quote:

When Jacob left Laban, Joseph was only a baby.

There is a commentary I think in our parsha this past Shabbos that Yoseif "extended" his body to cover Eisav's view of Rochel his mother.

It would seem that Yoseif had to be fairly tall, and walking.

Furthermore, how many years apart were Yoseif and Binyamin?