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Perhaps Rabbi Younger would permit you to post his email address for those in his target area and who wish to expand their knowledge through his free one-on-one learning program?
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B"H
Rob, The e-mail of Rabbi M. Younger is written below: mcyounger@aish.com Sincerely, David |
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B"H
Rabbi Yochanan once said: "If it were not written [in the Bible], no man could muster the nerve to say it!" (Sukkah 52) He was referring to a series of passages that seem to point to the view that we are what we are, no matter what we are, because G-d made us that way. The first of these passages is in I Kings, chapter 18: ו×תה הסבות ×ת ×œ×‘× ××—×¨×•× ×™×ª ("But thou hast turned their heart backwards.") The second is like unto the first, viz., in Micah, chapter 4, we read: ו×שר הרעותי ("And he whom I have made to do evil.") The third is, likewise, a repetition of the first two. In Jeremiah, chapter 18, we learn: כחומר ביד היוצר כן ××ª× ×‘×™×“×™ בית ישר×ל ("As clay in the hand of the potter, so art thou in my hand, O house of Israel.") The fourth is also very similar. In Ezekiel 36:27, we read: ו×ת רוחי ×תן ×‘×§×¨×‘×›× ×•×¢×©×™×ª×™ ×ת ×שר בחוקי תלכו ומשפטי תשמרו ×•×¢×©×™×ª× ("And my spirit I shall put within you, and I shall cause [you] to walk in my ordinances, and to keep and observe my judgments.") How do these passages fit into the general belief with us that a man decides whether he is to be righteous or wicked? David |
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The Lubavitcher Rebbe (MMS) states in various places (maamarim & sichot) that "one mitzvah leads to another mitzvah..." and likewise that "a person's actions establish their path..."
Therefore if I may mention, In the case of Paro: We must not forget that he (Paro) is originally under the impression that "he is a diety" of one sort or another - or at least 'equal to diety'. This and the fact that he is both a non-Jew, and an idolater (self-absorbed as well as involved with avodah zerah) place the issue of free will and/or choice into a different realm. Paro's essence is not based upon his recognition of the Creator (HaShem), yet his focus is upon on how he can be a diety, "his own creator". Indeed, it is Paro who states that 'he is Eygpt, he is the sun and the moon', etc... The hardening of Paro's heart can be likened to a young boy flying his kite... the wind ceases to blow, and the kite begins to fall, as it falls the boy runs through the field in an attempt to keep the kite aloft, a gust of wind here or there lifts the kite again briefly, the boy begins to think that he is causing the kite to fly, so he runs some more, the wind ceases again, the kite falls, the boy runs, soon the boy reaches the end of the field... Now he sees his "choice" - will he recognize that the wind is not under his control, and (if he wants he) turn around and run the opposite length of the field - if he does the kite will not gain altitude, it will not fly. Not without the wind to sustain it from continually falling. Eventually every person is able to respond (i.e pshat of 'responsibility') to and for his/her own spiritual state, yet existence is granted. ...Who among us has ever decided NOT to be born? with appreciation... yd"L |
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David, doesn't righteousness and wickedness refer to a realm beyond man's natural abilities? ...after all a tzadiq is born as such, even if that person is placed into a severely low situation their staus of being a tzaddiq is a mattan shel Shamayim. (Gift from Heaven)... therefore the status of a rasha (emet mamash) (actual true wicked person) would likewise be a gift (so-to-speak) or curse from Heaven. Even so, we learn from the Gemora which is read on Tisha B'Av that each one called up to testify, does so according to their true essence. This also does not negate their "free-will" or ability to respond, to their status when they were 'alive upon the earth'... Balaam was wicked then and now, yet he could not curse Israel, yet he (Balaam) was able to wound Israel through baal-peor... and yet it says 'all Israel is righteous'... this must mean that good and evil; righteousness and wickedness are not necessarily refering to things within man's own scope of comprehension, abilities, or perspective... look forward to your comment(s), this is an intriguing thread... |
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B"H
Yehonaton, You have only exacerbated the problem! On one hand, we learn that "All is in the hand of heaven, except one's fear of heaven." On the other hand, we learn that "all Israel is righteous," meaning, every Jew who is to be born, or whoever was born, is considered "righteous" in the eyes of G-d, and has a portion in the world to come - even without his being conscious of the fact, or, as you put it, "good and evil/righteousness and wickedness not necessarily being within his scope of comprehension, abilities or perspective." How do we rectify the two statements? Could it simply be that G-d saw in advance each man's works and has foretold to us about Israel's righteous standing? David |
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"...have only exacerbated the problem! ...How do we rectify the two statements? Could it simply be that G-d saw in advance each man's works and has foretold to us about Israel's righteous standing?"
Before using words like "exacerbating a problem" perhaps we should realize the definition of exacerbate... it doesn't mean 'to compound', it means "to embitter" - which if I did that then forgive me. I think u meant to say exasperate (which means to irritate)... however, I think I might be able to re-phrase the perspective of the comment. If a comment doesn't answer the Q simply because it is an acknowledgement of a paradox, then perhaps the question should be re-evaluated. - And you did do that, by asking a different question... though in similar relationship to the question before. How do we rectify a paradox? To my knowledge, which is limited, you must either accept it on emunah, or probe beyond conventional ideas... "The secret things belong to HaShem..." However, the idea that it is 'G_d's fore-seeing' in advance is like going to a fortune teller, and we know that Torah forbids such a thing. That "all Israel is righteous" is a testimony to the nature of our connection to HaShem, and not necessarily to our actions under the constriction of the existence in this lowly form. - A pearl is made when an irritant is lodged within the flesh of an oyster. Likewise a lump of coal subjected to intense pressure can become either diamond or graphite. The concern with one's 'righteousness' or another person's 'righteous standing' shows an intense desire to either know G_d or to exalt one's self by defining the criteria for determination. If, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe said, "every person is ultimately responsible for their own spiritual standing" and thus for their actions to that effect, then the standing which determines entry to Olam Haba is separate from the standing, and/or condition of a person's (future/present) existence in Olam Haba... As when someone goes to Disney World, admission to the park means you have gotten there, yet which rides will you risk riding or will you just stand and watch? The spiritual standing of Israel is collective: "kol Yisrael..." - the individual is given free will for a purpose, part of that purpose is to purify/refine and tikkun this physical existence and prepare it to become a dira tachtonim for HaShem, another part is to prepare ourselves through Torah and Mitzvot to exist in a world/realm where the Infinite Light will be revealed, as it says: "the sheath of the sun will be removed..." Questioning how/why G_d does things and questioning G_d about the reality of our existence are two different things, that are based upon two different perspectives. Which can be summed up in this story [paraphrased]: 'The scholars of a town's yeshiva come to question a pious Jew, who was new to their town, they ask: "You seem pre-occupied with your self, why is it that you do not attend to studying all day at our yeshiva?", The pious Jew replies, "you are all such great thinkers and so concerned about G_d - you are always questioning - always inquiring about G_d's existence, how G_d can do this or that, and why G_d allows this and that... I am not on your level," (the scholars accepted this comment with honor, and satisfaction); the man continued, "...I am just a simple man. I spend most of my day amazed that I exist, and that G_d has given me another day of life, and G_d wants me to live. - so, what's the question again? |
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B"H
Yehonaton, Shalom! First, the online English dictionary defines "exacerbate" as: 1. to increase the severity, bitterness, or violence of (disease, ill feeling, etc.); aggravate. 2. to embitter the feelings of (a person); irritate; exasperate So, we are actually saying the same thing. Second, you wrote: "…the idea that it is 'G-d's fore-seeing' in advance is like going to a fortune teller, and we know that Torah forbids such a thing." Can we actually compare "G-d's foreknowledge" about a certain thing as being tantamount to our seeking fortune tellers? I think not. Rather, in my humble opinion, the Rabbis only wanted to state a fact when they said "All Israel is righteous," namely, that G-d knows in advance what we are inclined or wont to do. As it is written in Pirke Avoth: "Everything is foreseen [by G-d], but the choice [to us] has been given." This does not mean to say that we have consulted fortune tellers when we acknowledge that G-d has prior knowledge about what we are inclined to do. Sincerely, David |
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David, I believe that is what I said.... perhaps I was too long-winded about it. The choice that G_d gives us is a testimony to the fact that He has fore-seen the possibilities of our choice. I merely meant that we cannot and should not see His fore-seeing/fore-knowing as if it were a form of fortune-telling. |
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WADR, G-d does NOT foresee our choices. G-d has no subjective experience of time. Therefore, He has no before, no after. He simply "sees", not "FOREsees". There is no free will two days after the decision, what you did is etched in stone. (Although much of its effects can be repaired through teshuvah.) Free will is a consequence of time. Without time, there is no beforehand. And thus, as the Rambam writes, there is no more contradiction between His knowledge of all of history and free will and our knowledge of the past.
For more on this subject, see my blog entry Divine Timelessness. |
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Great point micha... l'shana tovah.
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B"H
Micha, I would suggest your reading the Rabbinic commentaries on Pirke Avos 3:15. Some (Rabbi Ovadia of Bertinora) explain the verse as meaning that G-d sees our present acts, even when we are enclosed within the inner chambers of a house. Rambam, on the other hand, explains that G-d sees, in advance, our future actions, even before we do them. While G-d does, indeed, foresee our every move, and the choices that we make, this does not necessarily mean that he has manipulated our choice. As I understand it, this does not mean that G-d has projected himself into the future. Rather, he simply knows what we are inclined to do in every situation, before we do it, although the choice squarely rests upon our shoulders. David |
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I should have cited my source. My argument is simply that of the Or Samayach's on Hilchos Teshuvah. He has a long essay on "Hakol Tzafui -- Everything is Seen". I took R' Meir Simchah haKohein of Dvinsk's position and recast it into contemporary (post-Einstein) terminology.
David ben Avraham wrote, "As I understand it, this does not mean that G-d has projected himself into the future. Rather, he simply knows what we are inclined to do in every situation, before we do it, although the choice squarely rests upon our shoulders." Obviously Hashem hasn't projected Himself into the future... That would require Him having a "now", a subjective sense of time, which can reside in the present or the future. He does not. Which is the same reason why I'm objecting to assigining a "when" to Hashem's knowledge. He doesn't know anything before it happens, Hashem simply knows -- with no before, after, or other kind of "when". -mi |
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The Torah is written in the language of men, hence it says, "HaShem remembered Sarah..." and other such statements... G_d needs to remember?
So, then G_d has no now, from the perspective of Shamayim... yet from our perspective everything is determinative. I see no problem with the fact that since all exists because and in Him (so-to-speak) that HaShem can and does see the entire realm of possible choices that any one individual will/could make. This is not projecting G_d into any 'future' nor is it denying that His knowledge is beyond us. The concepts of 'fore-knowing', and/or 'fore-seeing' (and the sort) are purely human attempts of constricting ideas that are beyond comprehension (at a certain point)... David wrote: "G_d does, indeed, foresee..." micha wrote: "That would require... a subjective sense of time,...He doesn't know anything before it happens, HaShem simply knows -- with no before, after, or... "when". Yet, Avraham Yehoshua Heschel wrote: "time is the evidence of the presence of G_d"... This seems to imply that a sense of time comes because of G_d's presence, however, isn't it the lack of our perception of G_d's Presence that makes time such an apparent contridiction? We know time is a created "thing" therefore G_d "exists" separate from time. He is in fact the source of all present, past and future from our perspective, yet He simply "is" in every possible dimension... because without Him there would be no now, no past and no future... (Kabbalah/Zohar). In the end, it is most important to allow a person 'their own' comprehension at that moment. (a ballon filled with to much air/water -brusts...) [I admit this might be very simplified yet...] To rectify the seeming descrepency of how can G_d percieve man's actions and fortell us of Israel's righteous standing? It seem's (to me) that there is no contridiction, because HaShem sees the righteous standing of Israel, therefore the person's 'works' serve to complete that standing. Is there not a Gemora that states "every Jew will do t'shuvah"? If HaShem created us with the impetus to do t'shuvah, how can kol Yisrael not be righteous? Regardless of the actions of this or that individual event, in which ever lifetime, all the actions (of klal Yisrael) will meet the required specifications of our performing the Will of HaShem, because we have willing chosen to, throughout each and every 'time' that it was necessary to accomplish the mitzvot, tikkun, and/or the aliyah nitsiyotz (elevating of the spark), etc... After all Chazal say, "that a person can live 70 or 80 years just to do a favor for a Jew, and in that one moment/event they fulfill their purpose for being"... and likewise, the Baal Shem Tov said, "you cannot judge the "liftime" of a person in chronolgical order by the years of a life lived here... the death of a two-year old, born to Jewish parents in a Kosher home, may be the ending of a righteous person's life, who was born into an unkosher situation for the first two years of the life he lived." The two-year old's birth and death in a kosher situation being the tikkun for that tzaddiq's previous lifetime... This seems a thing to be very joyous over... wouldn't you agree? |
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Micha, This discussion reminds me of something I once read from the works of Rabbeinu Saadia Gaon. There, he wanted to show that where G-d said to Abraham (Braishis 22:12): ×›×™ עתה ידעתי ×›×™ יר××” ××œ×”×™× ×תה ×•×œ× ×—×©×›×ª ×ת ×‘× ×š ×ת יחידך ×ž×ž× ×™ "For now I know that you fear G-d, seeing that you have not withheld your son, even your only son, from me." Rabbeinu Saadia Gaon says that the sense here is NOT "for now I know that you fear G-d," but rather: "For now I have made it known that you fear G-d, etc." For it cannot be that G-d did not know in advance what Abraham would do. For as you said, "G-d KNOWS." Be well, David |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chaim5739:
Shalom David, You wrote: "HaShem is not subject to these dimensions; as the Creator of time, He is necessarily above it. He exists in a singularity, where everything and nothing happen at once. **** Do you mean to say that existence is due to Him, and/or that singularity exists in Him. Because doesn't He encompass/sustain (etc) all that exists and that which we cannot comprehend as existence, and even that which does not exist, as in all potentiality, etc... The Torah represents the meeting of these two planes of existence: Ours, with our four dimensions, and His -- infinite, utterly beyond human comprehension. ****I don't see Torah as an external "meeting place"... yet i understand your statement... I ref. that It states in D'varim dalet/Lamed-tet (4:39) that we are to know (daat) (ie. in our mind) and l'vavecha (in our heart) that He is G_d... this seems to makes Torah more than a 'place of meeting', wouldn't u agree? It seems to be that Torah is supoosed to be our hashkafah for living, all "dimensionality" aside. Emet means "Reality" and Torah Emet is knowing the mind of G_d (so-to-speak)-see Rabbi J. Rietti's commentary on Emet- or should I say: the perspective of G_dliness in this existence. Which by no means implies that our existence is not "mind-boggling" because (if I understand what you wrote...) if "HaShem only has an existence in Infinity" then how can He interact with the finite? However if Infinity is the result of Him, i.e. His "existence" being the source of infinity... then even the finite is a place of His Presence (as David HaMelech states in Tehillim kof-lamed-tet/139)... Rabbi Rietti comments on this idea in His "One-minute Masmid" by saying: "HaShem 'sees' the 'real' cause of everything, and the cause of every cause... He sees everything in context of all dimensions of time, history, space - simultaneously (as well as internal and external dimensions of thought and emotion...) HaShem's Torah is the study (so-to-speak) of HaShem's Mind! The goal of which is to open our minds to recognize (listen, see, feel) His Presence in each and every detail of our lives. Halachah is HaShem's 'opinion' on how we should direct ourselves in every action of life! If/when I don't follow halacha and I follow my own view of what i think is right in my eyes, then i am ignoring HaShem not just as the Ultimate measure of right and wrong; yet as the Only measure of Reality." Halachah is our relationship guide to every relationship, especially the Ultimate One... |
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Shalom Yehonaton,
You make some excellent points. This singularity I am referring to is simply a model with which to better understand the differences between our "situation" as humans, and HaShem's as the Creator and Custodian of existence itself. Of course He sustains everything (and nothing), an encompasses everything (and nothing). He is everything, to put it simply. Language is always problematic in this discourse, as words conceal meaning. There is no lexicon that can acurately represent the sublime reality of HaShem. As for the Torah being "an external meeting place", again, this is a metaphor. Torah is emet, and the full breadth of its providential relevance becomes more and more clear everyday. But on one level, the Torah does represent a chronicle of our interaction with HaShem. Granted, HaShem is ubiquitous -- quantumly omnipresent. But within our limited scope, He is most visible in the text of the Torah. |
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Chaim
Shalom, and l'shanah tovah v'tuka, v'tikatev v'techatem, b'simcha b'Sukkot l'chayim tovim b'hatzlacha ul'shalom rav!! Totally agree with what you said... One question or thought, if "Torah is the place where HE is most visible" why does David write: "The earth is full of your glory"? My point is not to launch into some pantheistic vs. montheistic nor am i citing a problem with Torah or religious objectification of the text... Here is what I mean: Torah is where HaShem reveals His Mind. Torah is where He reveals His Middot, and part of the chitsoniyus distinction between us (Jews) and the nations of the earth (Goyim) is in this simple perspective. (hope you agree, if not stay with me), So, when we spend our time cultivating not only a Torah-based lifestyle (keeping Shabbat etc...) which is chitsoniyus, we are should also be and are suppose to develop a Torah-mindset as well, which is a level of pinnimiyus though not atzmut. This does not mean spouting-off halacha at everyone who does not tie their shoes right then left - it means being able to view the "outside" through the comprehension that this is HaShem's existential interface with us (so-to-speak)... The natural world is relevant to Elokim, while the text of Torah is relevant to Y-k-V-k, and here is my point: if all we are concerned about is how to do halacha, then have we missed the relationship of why we should do halacha? if not - why not; and if so how do 'we' get to where 'we' should be? Avantem? mevin nachon? look forward to your thoughts todah rabbah! may HaShem rectify the innyan of Moshiach and bring the final geulah, Achshav! |
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Shalom Yehonaton,
You make an excellent point, and express it beautifully. Thank you. |
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