I agree. The form should follow the content, not the other way around. We should avoid keeping the form for the sake of the form. If we do not know, or do not remember, why we tie one shoe first and not the other, then it should not matter to us. If we observe kashrut just to eat healthily, then might as well go grab a cheesburger. But if we do what we do in order to fulfill Mitzvot - then we certainly should better do it right.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:
If we observe kashrut just to eat healthily, then might as well go grab a cheeseburger.

Alex,

Isn't there a teaching that says:

"A man ought always to occupy himself in the words of the Law, and in the commandments, even if it were not for their own sake. For at length, he will do it for their own sake."

לעולם יעסוק אדם בתורה ובמצות אפילו שלא לשמה. שמתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:
If we observe kashrut just to eat healthily, then might as well go grab a cheeseburger.

Alex,

Isn't there a teaching that says:

"A man ought always to occupy himself in the words of the Law, and in the commandments, even if it were not for their own sake. For at length, he will do it for their own sake."

לעולם יעסוק אדם בתורה ובמצות אפילו שלא לשמה. שמתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה

True, yet is this not speaking of study with regard to "ego"... If I understand Alex's comment: he seems to be speaking about logical reasons for doing halachah vs spiritual acceptance that they are commands... Iskafiah (willing subjegation) is a result of learning the true nature of something (Carrion de Santob - Rav Yisrael de Santob of Spain, Proverbios Morales 1200's). Someone who studies Torah in order to be "a big talmud chacham" and go on the "speaking tours" eventually finds in the Torah a question that will alter that person's perspective and he will realize that being the "big talmud chcacham" is not the point, and that the point is having a relationship with the Divine, as revealed (objectively through Torah and subjectively...) through the world around us (stewardship over our world), through our-inner selves (learning Torah and Tefilla), and through our actions (mitzvot and gemilut chesed)...
The difference seems to be in the point of recognition; where as the "big talmud chacham" who is doing/studying for his ego, will eventually come face to face with pasookim that expose his hypocrisy of ego, the person who is being kosher for health reasons is never moving any further towards the mitzvot or Torah than that surface explaination; and they will argue that in fact the "true meaning" of kashrut is "for health" and not because it is a Divine command given by G_d. The ego-driven talmid at least admits that study is a Divine command, even if his motivation is unclear, or tainted by his 'desire to be great in Torah'. 'He' is still fulfilling the original intent of the mitzah of 'limud Torah' because it is "a command" (he just sees it as a way to get famous or rich as well)...
Yet, The person who refuses to see Torah as Divine, may still "do 'Jewish' things" because it is cultural or "cool" or healthy; which is different from the doing something in Torah because it is a mitzvah of HaShem even for an alterior/external motive. The essence of Judaism (as well as the Jew) is Divine, and to claim that there is another reason, or a 'better reason based solely on seichel/human logic', for doing Torah and Mitzvot is basically like telling HaShem that "you don't buy into His being G_d"...chas v'shalom! (see History of Reformed Movement and Works of Avraham Joshua Heschel, where he discusses "Reasons for the Tradition" in 'Grow in Wisdom', and others).
Notice the key phrase from your pasok: "...occupy themselves IN the Words of Torah..." the person who is into kashrut or mikveh (etc...) because it is healthy or an invigorating experince may be in serious danger of missing the whole point of Torah, because they are involved in their experience, and Not involved in the Words of Torah for the sake of Torah/Divine command. (This - i think - goes without saying for virtually any/all activities) Whereas Torah should be the influence in shaping and clarifying our experiences; and not that our experiences should shape the Torah to fit/make our desires more justified as a guide... - Today, Yom Kipur should be/may it be for clarity in makshavah, dibbur, middot, v'ma'aseh for all... kol tuv.

B"H

Yehonaton,

Actually, that famous dictum speaks, both, about study of Torah (i.e. "one's ego"), as well about simply doing the commandments for reasons not quite up to par.

David

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

Yehonaton,

Actually, that famous dictum speaks, both, about study of Torah (i.e. "one's ego"), as well about simply doing the commandments for reasons not quite up to par.

David

Yes, I agree, and I believe that I mentioned that when I wrote: >> "Notice the key phrase from your pasok: "...occupy themselves IN the Words of Torah..." the person who is into kashrut or mikveh (etc...) because it is healthy or an invigorating experince may be in serious danger of missing the whole point of Torah, because they are involved in their experience, and Not involved in the Words of Torah for the sake of Torah/Divine command. (This - i think - goes without saying for virtually any/all activities) Whereas Torah should be the influence in shaping and clarifying our experiences; and not that our experiences should shape the Torah to fit/make our desires and make them more justified, so as to serve as a guide..."

B'simcha b'Sukot!

B"H

Yehonaton,

While it is true, "Torah should be the influence in shaping and clarifying our experiences; and not that our experiences should shape the Torah to fit/make our desires and make them more justified, so as to serve as a guide...," still, by the wording of that dictum quoted to you directly from our Talmud, even if a person's motives in performing certain Mitzvos were initially intended to fit his own desires and to make them more justified, he has been admonished to continue doing so nevertheless. For, at length, he will do the commandments for their own sake.

David