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Raybin, Can I ask you where you learned this? Sincerely, David |
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Hi Raybin. Nice to have you back . Your new logo is interesting.
I'm assuming that in saying "I don't think that what you are saying has much to do with being Jewish, but has a lot to do with being a psychologist" you are saying you don't want me to talk off specific Jewish topics at Global Yeshiva. That's fine by me. Will do. If I don't respond to some things you say you will know why. Torah doesn't tell us all we need to believe. Do a survey; ask a Rabbi; look up insurance company data on how long people live. We need to find realistic bases for belief = Torah + what else? I loved that quote from psalm 84. Thanks. |
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GY Moderator  |
Raybin, this is so not true as far as fathers and sons are concerned. I pray that I will always be close with my daughters and that we can be "familiar" with each other. There is no objection, for instance, to a father kissing or hugging his daughter or a mother her son. |
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Shalom
It is in basic Judaism that I learned that there are forbidden relationships. Father and daughter, Mother and son, brother and sister. If the affection between them gets out of control then it can be, or border on a forbidden relationship. This is not the act of intercourse, but the temptations and acts that are related and can lead to a downfall. It is impure, even when it is in the heart or the mind. That is why I said that Judaism teaches that you should not be too familiar with close relatives. To me, this included eye contact, groping, taking sides- as a father and daughter against a mother, unusual attachment, kissing and hugging can also be wrong (and abusive) because it may imply the wrong message. Also, I read about how Adam hid Chaya in a cave? To protect her from being seen. In a way we are doing the same thing by putting some distance between us. I doubt if Hashem wants me to move back and start hugging and kissing everybody. Though it would be nice to go home, I am not sure if it would be good for my family. They all have their own lives to live without me now. Thank you for reminding me that when appropriate it is OK to show affection. Rosemary- That is not what I meant. Feel free to post whatever you want. I appreciate your input. Can we talk about the grasshopper now? Interestingly, grasshoppers are Kosher. Shalom |
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GY Teacher |
Quote "It is in basic Judaism that I learned that there are forbidden relationships. Father and daughter, Mother and son, brother and sister. If the affection between them gets out of control then it can be, or border on a forbidden relationship. This is not the act of intercourse, but the temptations and acts that are related and can lead to a downfall"
See Even Haezer 21:7 that it's not allowed a brother and sister to hug for it leads to improper thoughts. This is based on Shabbos 13a. But a father/daughter or mother/ son are permitted to kiss and hug. The Beis Shmuel there permits granddaughter and minor sister (before 11.) ____________ http://limudtorah.jewishweb.org Please help the Global Yeshiva to continue spreading high quality Torah by sponsoring a Shiur in the "Understanding Mishna Brurah" forum. All sponsorships are tax deductible. |
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Raybin, I no longer feel free to post what I want to you because you said before that "I don't think that what you are saying has much to do with being Jewish, but has a lot to do with being a psychologist". I was shocked to read this as I always try very hard to follow good Jewish principles however I act and whatever body of learning I draw on. Now I feel held back from writing as I did. I shudder at the thought that I may not be behaving like a good Jew. If I am taking something the wrong way, I am sorry.
But thank you for saying "I appreciate your input". I am glad of that. I did mean well.
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GY Moderator |
Raybin, I think it would do you good if you could get a handle on what Jewish Law requires from us and what it doesn't. By adding your own Chumros [stringencies] you run the risk, G-d forbid, of finding being observant more than is bearable. None of the things you mention in regard to a father and daughter or a mother and son are in any way, shape or form required by Jewish Law or Custom. |
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Friends, I think it would be inappropriate to go into details on a public forum like this. We must be reminded that there have been fathers who have molested their children. Dai Le-Chakima Be-Ramiza. די לחכימא ברמיזא It would seem to me that our friend is trying to say to us: "Sinful fancies are more injurious to health than the sin itself." (Yoma 29a) הרהורי עבירה קשים מן העבירה Let us not be too quick to judge her. She knows what she has gone through. However, we must caution against being too eccentric. Sometimes nothing has happened between a father and his children, yet, the mother becomes over protective of the child, and suspicious of the father's conduct. There have been cases where mothers have prevented their husbands from bathing the children. Our friend should know that a father is permitted in the Torah to kiss his children. Our friend should also know that a son and daughter are always obligated to honour their parents, and to do them good whenever possible - which would include visiting them. If she knows this, and attempts to apply by these rules given her situation, then all is well. Sincerely, David |
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GY Moderator |
Very nicely put, David.
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Shalom Rosemary: Do you think that perhaps one or two of my posts might have more to do with my experiences as an engineer than simply being a Jew, and aspiring to be a good Jew? I don't think you should feel held back if you have professional insights to share. You are surely receptive to any of the GY rabbonim pointing out, should it happen, that your psychological view of a situation might be counter to Torah wisdom, right? So long as Torah is on top, I see no harm in all of us learning a bit of how your psychologically trianed eyes see things. |
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Shalom Rob.
I appreciated your post. Thank you very much. Now I hope I have sufficient wisdom to reply to it as I should. This is a tricky business. Firstly, I shall reply to your "Do you think that perhaps one or two of my posts might have more to do with my experiences as an engineer than simply being a Jew, and aspiring to be a good Jew?". Rob, I just don't know the answer to that. But, from reading your posts I would say that you draw on all that seems relevant to you in your thinking about and responding to a topic (you always stay on a topic) andyour experience of Judaism and try always to act as a good Jew. I would say the same about myself, except that sometimes I may not stick to the topic in the way you do (but I hope I am being relevant to the posts and appropriate). So I don't think this solves the accusation (whuch is how I took it) that I was acting from the basis of an assumed (there is actually no such thing)consensually agreed upon, by psychologists, template of how to respond to people AND NOT from "much to do with being Jewish" (as Raybin put it. This is a pretty strong thing to say to me and I was aghast. It was like being told I wasn't acting like a Jew. I felt as if she shot me and I still do. The reason this got me was that I alwaystry to behave as appropriate to being Jewish. This matters to me very much indeed. I am not a hypocrite. And I am a person who tried to make sure I think and behave only in ways that match up to the template I have accepted for right behaviour. I do not worship psychology. Psychology is only a rag bag of all sorts of things (good and bad; useful and sheer rubbish) to do with people. It is my task, as a dedicated Jew, to select those rags Hashem would approve of. So, in replying to Raybin, indeed in even choosing to reply to Raybin, I was always a Jew. Now I will respond respect to this that you said: "I don't think you should feel held back if you have professional insights to share. You are surely receptive to any of the GY rabbonim pointing out, should it happen, that your psychological view of a situation might be counter to Torah wisdom, right?". Thank you for your encouragement. And of course I welcome correction. Please do. We learn by our mistakes and Hashem surely expects us only to do our best and to keep behaving as best we can". Actually, my take is that the good psychological insights are in Torah already. All is in Torah, isn't it so? And, actually, I have gathered my experience from all over, being an ongoing student and spiritual seeker. It is inaccurate to focus on psychology just because I am a psychologist. I am also a philosopher. Lol! That let the cat out of the bag  ! Actually though, I would resent being called just a philosopher, too.Thanks for the encouragement at the end. Much appreciated. But, actually, most of what I learned about psychology I learned elsewhere than in academic and professional circles. Anybody can learn such things, and better than I have, if they just go about it in the right way. Might take a few lifetimes though, lol. Me too. There is no surpassing the wisdom of Torah. The sages are a wonderful help, etc, etc.
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Shalom Rob.
I appreciated your post. Thank you very much. Now I hope I have sufficient wisdom to reply to it as I should. This is a tricky business. Firstly, I shall reply to your "Do you think that perhaps one or two of my posts might have more to do with my experiences as an engineer than simply being a Jew, and aspiring to be a good Jew?". Rob, I just don't know the answer to that. But, from reading your posts I would say that you draw on all that seems relevant to you in your thinking about and responding to a topic (you always stay on a topic) andyour experience of Judaism and try always to act as a good Jew. I would say the same about myself, except that sometimes I may not stick to the topic in the way you do (but I hope I am being relevant to the posts and appropriate). So I don't think this solves the accusation (whuch is how I took it) that I was acting from the basis of an assumed (there is actually no such thing)consensually agreed upon, by psychologists, template of how to respond to people AND NOT from "much to do with being Jewish" (as Raybin put it. This is a pretty strong thing to say to me and I was aghast. It was like being told I wasn't acting like a Jew. I felt as if she shot me and I still do. The reason this got me was that I alwaystry to behave as appropriate to being Jewish. This matters to me very much indeed. I am not a hypocrite. I am very sincere. And I am a person who tried to make sure I think and behave only in ways that match up to the template I have accepted for right behaviour. I do not worship psychology. Psychology is only a rag bag of all sorts of humanly made or collected things (good and bad; useful and sheer rubbish) to do with people. It is my task, as a dedicated Jew, to select those rags Hashem would approve of, and in a suitable manner, to a suitable purpose. So, in replying to Raybin, indeed in even choosing to reply to Raybin, I was always a Jew, as well as I could be. Now I will respond respect to this that you said: "I don't think you should feel held back if you have professional insights to share. You are surely receptive to any of the GY rabbonim pointing out, should it happen, that your psychological view of a situation might be counter to Torah wisdom, right?". Thank you for your encouragement. And of course I welcome correction. Please do. We learn by our mistakes and Hashem surely expects us only to do our best and to keep behaving as best we can". Actually, my take is that the good psychological insights are in Torah already. All is in Torah, isn't it so? And, actually, I have gathered my experience from all over, being an ongoing student and spiritual seeker, but tested against Torah.It seems odd (it does to me), but I believe it is true that it has always seemed I have chosen in light of Torah truths, except when my animal soul overcame me, or I could not escape my ignorance and confusion. So it is inaccurate to focus on psychology just because I am a psychologist. And I am other things too, eg, I am also a philosopher. Lol! That let the cat out of the bag ! Some very nasty things have been said about philosophers  Actually though, I would resent being called just a philosopher, too.Thanks for the encouragement at the end too. Much appreciated. Actually, most of what I learned about psychology I learned elsewhere than in academic and professional circles. Anybody can learn such things, and better than I have, if they just go about it in the right way.Rabbis get to be pretty wise. Might take a few lifetimes though, to get it all wrapped up, lol  . Me too. There is no surpassing the wisdom of Torah. The sages are a wonderful help, etc, etc. If you ask me, but I'm biased, there is no beating Judaism as a guide  .A final thing I will add, as shabbat closes in, is that it is always best to speak clearly and to the point, saying exactly what is on your mind, usung "I ..." talk and not using "You ..." talk. In speaking about me, Raybin, making that statement about psychologist and Judaism, you did not say why you said it , what you were getting at, or what you wanted. It did not help us talk to each other. You judged me, which only G-d can do. And you did not make it clear what you meant by that judgment. But you could have said what you thought and felt about what I had written. What you said got in the way. It has disturbed things. More than that, by implying, as your words did, that I was not coming from a Jewish basis, you undercut what I said. It might even be said that you insulted me. Why you chose to do this, only you know. But you did it and the harm was done. The harm will not go away because you say you want to hear from me. It is a shame but that is how life goes: we act and reap the consequences. And we all make our choices. Thank you for trying to help, Rob. I wish I knew how to write a better reply, and in so little time.
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Friends
I am still here with you, again. Listening. It seems that I am in some very hot water. My father has always been very good to me. And perhaps we are more stringent than necessary. Instead of kissing me, he pats me on the head. Maybe I was too explicit and did not know how to say what I meant in a more discreet way when I provided those details. Now it makes more sense to me that it is the brother that Judaism is most concerned about. I do not read the Talmud so all I can do is some womanly guesswork. And refer to this site when need be. I am glad you are all here. You are the best friends that I have now. I apologize to you, Rosemary. Obviously, I have embarassed and offended you. So, I apologize again. Your Friend, Raybin |
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Perhaps all of what I have to say has nothing to do with being Jewish, but everything to do with being crazy.
Have a Great Shabbos!! |
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Shalom Raybin.
If you want to know how I felt about what you said, you need to ask me. We cannot mind-read each other. I was neither embarassed nor offended. I was "shocked", as I said. I did not expect you to say what you did, and, what you said was pretty strongly worded, hence the shock (rather than just surprise). Thank you for your apology  I appreciate that very much.
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restDear Raybin, I disagree.
As I tried to say before, we are a complex mix of all sorts of things. It is a mistake to reduce such complexity to a couple of categories expressed in an either/or manner. If you are sometimes crazy, all that means if somebody was to describe you (assuming this is true) is that sometimes you act crazy somehow. And what about the rest of you? And what about your beautiful, ever-pure soul which Hashem gave you? But, having said that, I think you are playing with words again instead of just saying simply to me what you are thinking. If I may presume to suggest an exercise which some people have found useful, perhaps you could try, even if just in your head, to say to people, as a child would - just simply - what you mean. This is just an idea. It may help us talk better. And I could be quite mistaken. By the way, at least some of acting crazy is illogical or inaccurate thinking. That can be worked on. And it is always, for all of us important to think what other people think and feel about our behaviour and to try to choose a suitable way to act. And on what basis do we choose? I suspect that, as for me, you want to be a good Jew. And we have the task of trying to learn what a good Jew would do. Many times I don't find that at all easy and I know I can really get it wrong. We just have to keep trying to perfect ourselves, because that is what a good Jew has to do. I am sure other people here have lots of wise things they could say about this.
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Yes, and on a tangent: I love grasshopper pie! Does anyone else? And since it's made of alot of goey pudding and such, is it as kosher as real grasshoppers? Is pudding kosher? Should man-made sugar be kosher since it raises our yeast levels dangerously and confuses our pancreas? How about HYDROGENATED vegetable oils? That's really dangerous. It is pre-plastic, literally, and your body can't process it properly. It's linked to diabetes because it causes tumors on your kidneys and pancreas that also maladjust your insulin levels. The American Food and Drug administration has known this since 1953 and yet they still let us eat it. I don't know about you, but I don't normally melt my tupperware on my bagels before eating them, yet lots of people have no qualms about this - probably because they don't know. Read "Your Health Under Siege" by Jeffrey Bland. |
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| <Hawke>
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 Sorry, but I know which section of TaNaKh you are looking at and it IS talking about sexual/marital relationships. It's talking about this specifically and I quote, "thou shalt not KNOW thy mother's father, thy mother's brother, thy father, thy brother, etc. and abreviated" |
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Hawke- Maybe I have gone too far. But I was afraid they would idolize me, or treat me like their wife in other ways.
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