Does anyone have any torah thoughts on the terrible tsunami disaster in Asia?

I heard on the radio last night that no animals remains were found among the dead. They theorized that they sensed the danger and found shelter in a safe place.
I was thinking why this was different than Noachs flood where the animals died and over here where they were saved. Over there where part of the sins that they broached all prohibitted relationships, it spread to the animals. This is what is meant by "the ways of all flesh was corupt" and not only humans. This is what Chazal said that they didn't keep to their species. But here, I would imagine, the major sin in this part of the world is idolatry, which is a sin that is involved with the intelect, which animals don't have, to affect them. Thus they need not be destroyed.

Rav Chiam,

I do not see how the Tsunami could be Hashem's punishment of the people of Indonesia for idolitry. I believe the are mostly Moslems and hate idolitry as much as we do. They believe in the one true Master of rhe Universe as much as we do. Do you see any similarity between the story of Abraham, whose father was an idol maker and the story of Muhammed, whose father was an idol maker?

If we Jews are all brothers are the Moslems not our cousins? If Hashem wanted to punish them for anything, I can think of Moslems much closer to Israel who can really use some punishment.

You bring up a good point. To try to revive my peice There was mostly the lost from the other countries, like india Sri lanka etc. Since they were in that area and Woe to the wicked and Woe to their neighbors (that they have to share the wrath that falls into the area.) Besides, I wonder how deep they were in the Jihad against the Jews and USA (if I remember correctly, that their country had the 1st car bombings after 9/11.

I agree about your last line. (It was a good one.) But I'm afraid that they have a place in HAshem's plan to keep us in check.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rav Chaim,

Rav Chiam,

Thank you for your responce. I do not believe Hashem has a plan to keep us in check; that He, as we, long for the time when Israel will be at peace and the Temple restored.

At that time will the practice of sacrafice be revived? Is that what is in store for the Jews of the future?

In discussing these matters with my son, he is 45 years old, he opined that religion is never the cause of war or crualty; the cause is ill guided religious fanatasisim. He also believes that Jews can be as guilty of this as can anyone else. His first presant to me, after 9/11, was the book "Unholy War:Terror in the Name of Islam" by John Esposito, which also makes this point.

I count among my friends several Moslems, although they are really "seculer Moslems" much as we have so many "seculer Jews." One did teach and practice law in Bagdad prior to Saadam Husaine, and he is the most observant of them all. None hate Jews. I have known them and their families for 25-30 years.

Peace in Israel is possable as long as those involved in the process are moderates, on both sides.

We really have no choise. There is only one G-d who is the father of us all. Hashem is the G-d of the whole world, not just the Jews. As He said to Moses, "I am, that I am." The first step in the rebuilding of the Temple is peace in Israel. There will be peace only as long as we deal fairly with the Moslems. They will have peace only as long as they controll their fanatics. Those Arabs who knew what it was to live in peace with Jews are long dead. The Islamic clerics must stop preaching haterid for Jews and advocating suicide bombers. Those clergy who will not change their ways must be silenced as blasphemers who distort the Peace message of true Islam.

Hashem is neither with us or against us. To paraphase Abramham Lincoln, don't pray that G-d is on our side, pray we are on his.

I think we have to be carefull about declaring what the reason was for the tsunami tradgedy. We did not know any of the over 120,000 people that were killed (over one third of them children). To assume they were "wicked"and had to suffered the wrath of God,is more than a bit presumtuous on anyone's part. Only a prophet could know such a thing and the last I heard, we no longer have any among us.

Rabbi,

We are instructed that Hashem has told ue that He is the sole cause of whatever happens on this earth, wheather good or evil. This consept bothers me.

If, by this, we are to understand that Hashem is the one G-d, and that if evil befalls us we should not blame, or seek to appease, any other entity, I can accept that. If it means that when tragidy strikes it is by the intention of Hashem, I can not accept that. I can not accept that Hashem intendid the Holocost, or 9/11, or the Tsunami. I can not accept that Hashem intends Moslums to kill Americans in Iraq or for Americans to kill Moslums in Iraq.

To paraphrase Rabbi Kushner: bad things happen to good people.

Every year tragidy strikes around the globe. Innocent people are killed, usually the poor and disadvantaged. Some believe in the one true G-d, some are multi theists, some are animists, some worship their ancesters, some worship a rock. But, it seems to me that Hashem longs for the day when those who do not know Him and accept Him as the one true G-d will gain enlightenment, know Him and accept Him as the one true G-d. If Hashem desired the death of those who reject him, he could have wiped them out long ago.

If Hashem really would visit such heart break and death on a people who engaged in evil against Jews and America, he sure missed a golden opportunity with the Nazis and their allies.

Dear Andrew,
What exactly Islam stands for, I can't tell you, i'm not an expert on it. (I do know that Mohammed had massecered a town of hepless Jews in the year 624 or the whereabouts.) I would like to think people are generaly good, but my Sechel tells me otherwise. These days, where PC reigns, it's mandotory to think that there is only a handfull of bad guys out there. Only 18 people in the world wanted 9/11. Only, maybe, 6 Nazis who wanted jews killed, (And even then, they didn't really wanted.) Personally, I think it's dangerous to think that way, because you're letting down your gaurd. My understanding of the Israel situation is, if the Arabs wanted peace, and they would just behave themselves, the Palestinians would have the greatest standard of living than any other arabs in any other country in the Middle EAst (it's not like the arabs in S.A. are treated great. All the money from oil is grabbed by the aristracrats, and the people at large live in poverty.) It's my understanding, as their hate for jews make them cut off their nose dispite their face. About Indonesea, a freind of mine reminded me what the Indonesean president commented a few months ago why can't a few billion Moslems can't take care of 3.5 Million Jews. Now they are showed why.

It's always tricky to know why Hashem allowed a Hitler (who rise to power and staying there was no less of a miracle) and sometimes saves people through miracles, like the gulf war where 39 scuds, though many fell in populated areas, only killed 2 people (even though one that fell in an US army trench killed hundreds. See in the Bais Medrish in the "lost child" debates where I go into speculative theories on the Holocaust (just to say there is no proof that there is no G-d (Chas Vsholom) because he let the Holocaust. I dealt there with Rabbi KAcev's comment there too.

A few words that I heard from Rav Shalom Gold of Zichron Yoseph shul, Jerusalem, Israel.

The suddness of the tsumani reminds us that we do not know where we will be in the next five minutes. If you are estranged from a family member or friend, promised to give zedaka but haven't yet etc, then do it NOW. If you have a few minutes free NOW then pick up a sefer and learn,or say tehillim,or do a chesed etc.

Gila--Amen and Amen. My wife is fond of saying:"It's never too late to do a good deed." For those who procastinated and, before they can do it, are killed in a disaster, it can be too late.

Rav Chiam--Perhaps I did not make myself clear. The occurance of the Holicost in Europe, genoside in Africa, 9/11, this Tsusami and othe desasters, man made and naturial, is not an argument that there is no G-d, or that God allows such evil as part of his plan. Hashem made the world and all that is on it. But there are such things as free will and nature.

I do not believe that Hashem intends all the evil that man does. If he did, why would man have to attone for his sins? Why would we need Roch Hashannah and Yom Kippor, and the week inbetween? The fact is that Hashem gave us the Torah, the Talmud, and the other books. These contain the "rules of the game" for living with each other on this earth. When we break one of these rules it is not because Hashem intended that we do. It is because we chose to.

Hashem created the universe of which this world is a part. What He created we call "nature". What he created is what it is and if we ignore what it is we are not using the good sense that Hashem gave us. There are, in nature, destructine forces: earth quakes, volcanic eruptiuons, hurracains, cyclones, forrest fires floods, and a mirriad of other natural desasters. Hashem didn't mean to punish us, or test us, by these natural desasters. They simply are a part of creation. We must use our brains to protect ourselves from them and to help others following them. When it rains, don't you put up your umbrella?

Nature and the study of nature, called "science"
tells us that the world is hundreds of million years old, and that durring this time it has been inhabated by various creatures, some of whom evolved into other creatures. This is not blasphamy, it is a better understanding of creation. Hashem is responsable for creation. The fact is that He did it through evolution. This is not inconsistant with a theory of "Creationism" or one of "Intellegent Design."
It is a description of the manner in which the Master of the Uneverse preformed creation.

This is not an argument that the Torah is not true. It is an explanation of the truth of the Torah. This is not an argument that there is no G-d. It is an explanation of how Hashem works, his wonders to perform.

No one can give you Faith. You either have it or you do not. Hillel explaned that the essence of Judaisim is "That which is hatefull to you, do not suffer to be done to others. All the rest is commentaty. Go study." Shoul 12 sages sit in a room to discuss a matter of Hallacah and 7 vote the Law is this way and 5 vote the Law is another way; and the Shakeenah should appear and Hashem be asked the question, the responce would be that Hashem has given the Torah to man and, therefore, the power to interpit it. Hashem would cast no vote.

When Hillel said "go study" there was very little to study but the Torah and the meger beginnings of the Talmud. The Talmud continued to grow and it continues to grow. Can you doubt that the responsa of Rabbis like Solavachick and Snerson will, in time, be cannonized? All life is Torah. Even scientific theories.

Rav, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong. But if I thought that I were, I'd change my opion.

I would say 'it's never too early to do a good deed.'

Have a good day!

Dear Andrew,
You make some good points, but I think that some of them do not fit into the Torah perspective and I'll explain why, and how it makes sense to say like my argument. You write that there are 2 forces that run contrary to the rule of Hashem, free will and nature. The Rambam in his 1st of 13 principles of faith (which is made in a synopsis form in the Ani Maamins) says that we believe that Hashem made continues to make and will allway make all the things that are happening (see there.) Nature is the easier one to answer, so I'll start with that. Who runs nature? Who makes it rain etc.? Of course Hashem causes them. That's why we pray for rain.

When you wrote "We must use our brains to protect ourselves from them and to help others following them. When it rains, don't you put up your umbrella?"
Are you saying that we can protect ourselves from all natural disaster? Actually catching colds is the exception of the rule not the rule itself. All (happenings to a person) is from heaven except for catching colds (some say also heatstroke (Kesuvos 30a) see Tosfos. Most disasters there is little to do, especially when it happens suddenly. The Gemarah in chulin says that one doesn't stub his toe unless it was called out already in heaven.


The other point, free will is alittle harder to understand, but i'll explain it. the question would go, if A wants to harm B then if Hashem stops him, then it would be taken away his free will. Or if A needed to get punished and B did it from Hashem's will, then B's free will was taken away. This is not so. If I would ask you who was the most evil person in history, one would be tempted to answer Hitler. The truth is, it's inconclusive. We don't know everyone who lived. Maybe they were a lot more evil then Hitler, just that Hitler was given a chance to perform his evilness and the others didn't. If Hashem needed a punishment to come on someone, he makes a Shiduch. He puts an evil guy in the position to harm this someone. Nobody took away the free will of the evil person, and he has the option to back down and Hashem would get a different evil person in the position to harm him. (There are no lack of people who is fit for taking this position ). This is actualy the point in Gitten 56a that originally Niron was sent to destroy the temple. he figured out that Hashem wanted the temple destroyed and wanted to make him the scapegoat for it i.e. to punish him for it. He ran away from his position and eventually converted. So Titus was sent. We all ahve choices, but if someone already started choosing bad, he's a good candidate for being put in the position of giving punishment. The only difference between Titus and Hitler and Haman and Saadam Huisein, the first pair was given permision to kill and the second's didn't. If Haman would of killed out people and the scuds would of fell on people and thousands of Jews would of died, we would look at them more evil than now we just view them as jokes.

I have a limited time to type, so i'll write about your other points, hopefully tomorow.

Please clarify the following point. If person A wanted to kill person B, but it was not B's time to die, would A be succssesfull?

To Rabbi Kacev:
If it's not the time he should die, he wouldn't die. We see that Moshe didn't die just because Paroh wanted to execute him. Vhitzeleni MiCherev Paroh. Now, we know the Satan is Mikatreg in the time of Sakana, thus a Bal Bchira could create a Sakana, thus pushing off the Erech Apayim Lrashayim, but that is a different discussion

To Andrew:
On the issue of evolution, my position is not that the Torah and that theorey cannot be reconcile. there are those that wrote many works putting them together. But Atheism can not work without evolution. This is why the Atheist scientest don't want to abandon the theorey, no matter what difficulties are involved with the theorey. Unfortunitley, they still run the establishment of "science" and they're not to nice to those that appose it (to thwart any descent.) but there are plenty of Creationist scientist (And also non creationist scientist) that feel that evolution is just bad science. I recomend the book "Shattering the myths of Darwinism" by Richard Milton. he's a non creationist science journalist that put together an impressive work shooting big wholes in the theorey. He claims, just because you don't have any better way of explaining living creatures without G-d does not give an excuse to come up with bad science

Just a few grave questions on the theorey.
1) There is no missing links. The fossil record jumps from one type of animal to another, where there should of billions upon billions of intermediate animals should of lived in between, and after finding millions of fossils, none of these intermediate fossils where found
2)The fruit fly test that they where testing for over 50 years (that they reproduce every month, so you have over 500 generations, and no change whatsoever in the species, even with trying to change it (by radiation etc.) It only produced fruit flies. Also, when it got to some kind of border (too much or too little of certain characteristics, the fly became sterile.)

So even if we see microevolution but that doesn't add up to macroevolution.

I had the idea, that maybe the prohibition of mixbreeding animals is to show the differences what was microevolution and what would have to be macro, thus impossible, so it was a differnt creation. This would answer why in the end of the 5th chapter of Bava kama, they prooved how different subspecies were a problem of mixbreading due to certain differences in apperance. but don't all subspecies have a difference in appearence? So if it's such a difference that couldn't happen with microevolution would have to suggest that they are different breads, thus was a different creation. this also fits in well that the gemarah learns these prohibitions accourding to what it says "species" by the verses of creation.

There is even ideas of microevelution in the Gemarah, like in Shabbos 30 (I think) that Hillel said that certain races have certain attributes in order to adapt to their regions better.

Don't wonder how can a whole establishment of scientist do not admit the truth and admit problems with the theorey. i think they are ruled by their biases. Just like we see the world of journalist that run by their biases, the latest example of Dan rather running with false documents against Bush. thus we should always have a sceptical eye, especially on the "sceptics."

To Rav Chayyim. Not everyone seems to agree with that. The Ohr Hachayyim in Parshas Vayeshev explicitly states that while animals do not have the ability to kill a person before his time,Human beings do have that ability.

To R' Kacev,
I'm aware of the Ohr Hachaim, which I thought you would be leading up to. I don't think he means that it's a Psik Reisha that he'll kill him. This you see all through Tanach and Shas that people were saved from other's attempts to harm and kill them. I think that he only means that a bar Bachira, which cannot be just "told" from Shamayim not to damage, would be a greater danger to a person, so it's a bigger Sukana, thus it wouldn't be as good as a test for Yosef than animals which would be fairer

The Goan anyhow writes my idea and supposedly that's my Avatar

Of Course Hashem can step in and protect the person. But my point was that we can find im many cases that a person can be killed by another person before his time.

Here is part of an article from Rabbi Benjamin Blech which sums up what I was saying about giving reasons for the tsunami disaster


"And it has already begun to raise its despicable head in some ostensibly "religious" publications. How could this have happened? It seems there are those who do not hesitate to assume the mantle of the prophet, to publicly assert their knowledge of divine intent as clearly as if God spoke to them "face-to-face" as He did with Moses. In the aftermath of tragedy, the false prophets of our times don't waver even for a moment as they pronounce judgment upon all of the victims.

Never mind that in the Bible it was God Himself who explained what He did. These defenders of the faith think it's necessary to always defame those who suffer in order to preserve the idea of divine righteousness. But bad theology is even worse than bad behavior. We can generally get over the hurt that comes from other people's actions. It's much harder, though, to recover from the kind of misrepresentations some people spout, ostensibly in the name of religion, that distort our proper understanding of God and His ways.

A perfect example is the

I would have to disagree strongly with Rabbi Blech's view, Kvodo B'mikomo Munach. I don't see why one needs to be a prophet to understand this. Chuchum Udef Minavi. The torah was not the only place that told reasons for tragedies. the gemarah is full of them (Luma Charvu..)even though it was after the times of Navuah. It doesn't take much to put together, especially when people are Muchzik with sin. Are you Chushed Hashem for doing Judgement without proper judgement (Brachos 5b see Tosfos.) The Gedolim in all generation gave reasons for certain desasters and tragedy. this all fits in, I don't think there is any questions you can pose on it. I don't think there is any problem to making these asumptions, and to be able to learn from it.