(See my above posts)
also,by Rav Ovaiaya yosef, I only found on the BBC
Israeli press condemns 'cursing Rabbi'



Barak needs Shas' support if he is to bolster his cabinet

Israeli commentators were divided about the political impact of the outspoken remarks by Shas leader, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, about the Holocaust victims and the Palestinians.
I guess you can figure out what's the outspoken remarks on the Holocaust

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
The difference is Pushet. I'm repeating the shalsheles Had'varim, where you can verify it. I'm sure you will agree the Rabbi Wolpin is a most trustworthy person who heard it straight from the daughter of the GAdol. You can verify it with one E-mail from it.


The only person who can verify this is Rav Dessler, and unless you have special talents I don't think this will be possible.

Rav Chaim said;
By what you quoted to explain the Mesech Chachma is something really impossible to say in it, as you admitted yourself. My colleagues who I repeated to was floored that anybody would say such a thing in the Meshech Chochma in which is explicitly not saying. this is why I'd rather not say that a Gadol said it. The statement is what I have problems with."

Rav Aharon in his sefer gave a clear proof as to how his pshat in the Meshech Chochmah was poshut.Those who are interested can look it up.

Rav Chaim said
"Also, I would like you to say how you learnt the Gemarah in B'rachos 5a, other than you can get a probable cause of your suffering. This is very important for you to answer."

I answered this in my last post.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
(see my above posts)
Also i found
"A 94 year-old Orthodox sage has poured more fuel on the flames of religious controversy in Israel by contending in a sermon that the Holocaust was God's punishment (on the Jewish people)…" So reported the Jewish Telegraphic Agency in the January 4th edition of the Forward in 1991. They were talking about Rabbi Eliezer Schach, spiritual leader of Shas, the most influential religious party in the land of Israel. "God is longsuffering," contended Rabbi Schach, "but eventually, when a point of saturation is reached, he wreaks his punishment."

---

This proves nothing. Of course it was a punishment. The problem is when one ascribes particular sins to a tragedy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
(See my above posts)
also,by Rav Ovaiaya yosef, I only found on the BBC
Israeli press condemns 'cursing Rabbi'



Barak needs Shas' support if he is to bolster his cabinet

Israeli commentators were divided about the political impact of the outspoken remarks by Shas leader, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, about the Holocaust victims and the Palestinians.
I guess you can figure out what's the outspoken remarks on the Holocaust

---

Now the Israeli press has become an authoritative source?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Y. Kacev,

So according to you that something that is known in the Yeshiva world and is also known in the secular world to be true can not be assumed correct, and also accounts from live and well witnesses, I guess you might as well deny that the holocaust happened in the first place. Or the Geetysburg Address, for that matter(besides, RAbbi Miller you couldn't push away what he wrote M'fairush)

If Rabbi Ahron explained the Meshech chachma in his piece, please explain how he does it. You're the only here that has the book so you might as well write it if it fits perfectly well. It shouldn't be so difficult.

You never got around the Gemarrah in Brachos to explain that you can't learn probable cause, you only made a Chiluk between doing it for yourself or someone else (that there is some Issur, that I asked you to quote what it is and you didn't to date). You had never came up with a way to learn the gemarah why it tells you to look into your deeds to see why the sufferring came if there is no way of knowing why the sufferring came. We're still waiting for an explanation.

If you Don't the distinction between an historical event and hearsay,there is nothing more that I can say.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Y. Kacev,

quote:

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Originally posted by Rav Chaim:


You never got around the Gemarrah in Brachos to explain that you can't learn probable cause, you only made a Chiluk between doing it for yourself or someone else (that there is some Issur, that I asked you to quote what it is and you didn't to date). You had never came up with a way to learn the gemarah why it tells you to look into your deeds to see why the sufferring came if there is no way of knowing why the sufferring came. We're still waiting for an explanation.

---

I explained it thoroughly just a couple of posts ago. Please go look it up.

Although i don’t remember specifics, i do remember both the statements of the Rishon Letzion and the Ponovizer RY. The latter’s comments were made on the eve of the gulf war. Even by optimistic accounts the situation looked bleak, at best. It was at this time that the RY made the aforementioned comments about the Holocaust, and concluded that secular isreal is now (C"V) getting its just deserts. These are the statements as i recall them.
B"H the story didn’t turn out as he anticipated, actually quite the opposite, the people of isreal witnessed open miracles. Scuds fell left and right, and not one casualty.
The reason i say this, is not to detract in Kovod TC, but rather to point out again that we just can not predicted Hashems ways. Simply can not.
The statements of the Rishon Letzion were made more recently, perhaps five years ago, but i dont recall the context.
I don’t see how the Gemmara from Brachot is a problem, quite the opposite, and the fact that you keep on trying to connect it leaves me only to conclude that we just aren’t communicating (although im not sure why?).
Firstly would you suggest, as i asked in an earlier post, that it would be within the intention on Chazal to look at another’s problem and say "Well, hes so righteous, Middot Tovot, Mitzvot B'Hiddur etc. yet he has so many tzoras. Well he must deserve it because hes probably Mevatel Torah!".
Secondly, Based on the Gemmora how is it that we see people who are quite "well off" yet we cant help notice that they are Mevatel Torah. Obviously Chazal are not giving us a yardstick whereby to pass judgment on humanity.
Rather the words of Chazal were said in an entirely different context. The tora student is aware that all that happens to him comes from Hashem with purpose. He notices that of late unusual "happenings" are befalling him. What is Hashems message, he asks? It is to him Chazal say "investigate your actions". Hashem is prodding you for better. He knows you can do better, you owe it to yourself to do better, and out of his boundless love for His people He wants you to reach your full potential. Investigate you actions, is the message of these occurrences.
The student searches and takes honest stock of his deeds, yet he finds no room to improve. Again Chazal inform him, "Its because of time that could be spend learning more." as Rashi explains, These negative occurrences are to bring about an increase in tora study. If thats still not possible, say Chazal, understand that this all comes out of Hashems love, in order to "unfairly" increase the reward of his children in the world of Truth.
The last statement of Chazal is indicative of the entire thrust of this passage. We are not dealing with a vengeful G-d, waiting to smite down those who disobey His law, but a merciful loving G-d who even His "punishments" are only meant to bring out the best for His people. The statements of Chazal are not meant to be a yardstick to judge humanity (why on earth would Chazal bother teaching this to us?! Do they need to train us to be supreme justices with Hashem on his supreme court), but rather a way to realize our true potential through every occurrence in our lives.
(I wonder, perhaps, if Chazal had any care for us making the right evaluation of our actions, but rather their intent was simply to improve our spiritual standing.)
Also, when Chazal tell us to make an evaluation of our actions, it comes with the Si'ata D'ishmaya, that (depending on how seriously we take this accounting,) Hashem will guide our thoughts to the points he has in mind for us. This being simply His helping hand to guide us, in our service to Him. This S.D. does not exist when one attempts to pass judgment on others! He is then left to come to our his (misguided) conclusions.

To Chaim of L.A.:
What you make the point about the Rosh Yeshiva’s mistaken prediction. It doesn’t prove to telling of the past. Just like it’s easier to tell you what the weather was last week than from a week from now. The one is already fact, so it’s easier to examine it and figure out what happened. The future is a lot harder to predict, since variations are able to creep in. Even by Yonah, he was upset when his Nevuah wasn’t Mikayem because of the change of events ( Ninvey did T’shuva.) At the time they said that Rav C. Kanievsky had a dream that his father told him there was a Gezarah against Klal Yisrael that was broken through the massive T’filah at the time.

When you wrote “Firstly would you suggest, as i asked in an earlier post, that it would be within the intention on Chazal to look at another’s problem and say "Well, hes so righteous, Middot Tovot, Mitzvot B'Hiddur etc. yet he has so many tzoras. Well he must deserve it because hes probably Mevatel Torah!".
This is of course not a problem. If you can’t find Bitul Torah by him, he’s no worse than you, and you can say it’s Yesurin Shel Ahava. If you know that he’s Mivatel torah, so then you have what to be Toloy on.

When you wrote “Secondly, Based on the Gemmora how is it that we see people who are quite "well off" yet we cant help notice that they are Mevatel Torah. Obviously Chazal are not giving us a yardstick whereby to pass judgment on humanity.
This is a different Sugya, this is Rasha V’tov Lo, which is Yom Tuv for his Mitzvos. We’re talking about Rasha V’rah Lo, so if you can connect the dots, why not.

When you wrote ”Rather the words of Chazal were said in an entirely different context. The tora student is aware that all that happens to him comes from Hashem with purpose. He notices that of late unusual "happenings" are befalling him. What is Hashems message, he asks? It is to him Chazal say "investigate your actions"
That’s exactly it, you can find out the cause by asking why is Hashem doing this to him. Why can’t it be done for anybody else. I’m saying that just like you can logicly figure out for yourself, just use the same thing for someone else.

When you wrote “Do they need to train us to be supreme justices with Hashem on his supreme court),” This is Pushet. First it puts into perspective world events. If someone wants to say that there is no G-d C’V because how can he do this. Thus we can deduce and see and understand that these things are for a reason, and it’s not far from good reasoning. Second, it’s a powerful Musser statement that there is justice in the world and you must be very aware of what you do, because it does make a difference, because it could happen to you to. Like Rashi says a Moshel to a doctor that it’s more potent to tell him don’t do such and such so you won’t die like Ploni.

When you wrote “Also, when Chazal tell us to make an evaluation of our actions, it comes with the Si'ata D'ishmaya, that (depending on how seriously we take this accounting,) Hashem will guide our thoughts to the points he has in mind for us.” Where do you find chazal tell you to do something that doesn’t make any logical sense to do (like here that, according to you there is no rhyme or reason to figure out) yet do it anyway because Hashem will miraculously lead him. I find this to be a great Doicheik.

***********Gedolim Update*******************

My friend and colleague Rabbi S.K. pointed out that the Steipler in Chayai Olom Perek 25 writes that the holocaust happen because of the reform I guess he must be another theologically challenged Gadol.

Im sorry i wont have time to reply to the points made at more length, however i do believe were going round in circles.
Comparing this to the weather is a serious oversight to say the least. There are more varibles it predicting G-ds past desicions, then predicting the weather for next week, next year and quite frankly i think that the meteoroligsts would have a better chance predicting today what the waether at a particular second would be in a century from now then we have reasoning G-ds desisions. There just isent a comparision.
I think also keep in mind another variable, an that is G-d might not be acting logicly at all, but rather "Silance, such has arisen in my will" (as was said regarding the death of rabbi akiva, not "i have a reason that im not going to say". There is not reason, just a Gizara. There is lots more to be said, im sorry i just dont have the time to elaborate.
I would just like to point to the Rambam in Teshuva 3:2, the entire law is of relevance but ill just translate the last sentance. "The wieghtiness (off good and negative deeds) is ONLY in the knowledge of G-d, and He alone knows to evaluate deeds aginst sins"

To Chaim of L.A.:
I don’t think the Rambam is dealing with what we’re talking about. He’s only saying in the general scheme of things you can’t say that this Mitzvah is more important than the other. If he indeed meant that only Hashem can tell you why a certain punishment happened, then Chazal would have no way of knowing why the 2nd Bais Hamikdash was destroyed or anything else they claimed the punishment after the time of prophecy ended.
Rabbi Akiva is no proof, because that is Tzadik V’rah lo, we’re discussing Rasha V’rah lo.

To Rabbi Kacev,
You told me to look back at your answer, so I did, you wrote

“b) "Thus we need to look to Chazal. in Brachos 5a "If Yesurim comes to a person, he should check out his deeds, if he doesn't find anything, he should blame it on bitul torah, and if that not then it's Yesurin Shel Ahavah." If according to your assumption that Hashem's ways are above our understanding how he deals with people and Yesurim, then wouldn't such a checking be futile to finding the cause of the Yesurim? Wouldn't it be like a shot in the dark? Chazal is saying quite strongly that we can find the Mekor of yesurim."

This Gemmorah has no bearing on our question. The Gemmorah was speaking about checking for one's OWN fault not judging someone ELSES”

To this I wrote
You never got around the Gemarrah in Brachos to explain that you can't learn probable cause, you only made a Chiluk between doing it for yourself or someone else (that there is some Issur, that I asked you to quote what it is and you didn't to date). You had never came up with a way to learn the gemarah why it tells you to look into your deeds to see why the sufferring came if there is no way of knowing why the sufferring came. We're still waiting for an explanation.
Which you replied
I explained it thoroughly just a couple of posts ago. Please go look it up.

So I looked it up, which is as I reported “This Gemmorah has no bearing on our question. The Gemmorah was speaking about checking for one's OWN fault not judging someone ELSES.” Which is exactly the Chiluk I said you made (no wonder you were not willing to repeat it) You have still not stated a reasonable answer how you can figure out what’s wrong with yourself, but do not have the ability to figure it out for someone else.

Also, since we brought down from their Sefarim that they deffinitly said why the Holocaust came from (even if you want to put your head in the sand for the other ones.) Thus that the statement that saying the reason for punishment is “bad theoligy that is worse than bad deeds.” Is a total Bizai for the Heiliga Steipler Goan and Hagoan Hatzadik Rav Avigdor Miller. I call on you, as a man of your principle, standing up where there is Bizuy Talmud Chachum and to condem the above statement.

I don't know why you overlooked my answer, but for your benefit here it is again.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:


I have explained it before, but will do it once again.The Gemmorah is giving good advice to people as to how to trace the origins of their troubles.
I still believe as I stated before that we are no longer on a level to be able to do this.
However whether we are or we aren't is irrelevant because the Gemmorah is giving this advice to people to look into their OWN transgressions, not to make judgement on OTHER
peoples transgressions. This is what the gemmorah is saying quite clearly.

As far as your comments about Bizui chachamim I will respond to that in my next post

Quote from Rabbi Kacev:
The Gemmorah is giving good advice to people as to how to trace the origins of their troubles.


How could this be good advice? If your position is that you can never know why troubles befall you without going to a prophet, how can you ever find the origin of your troubles?

As I said, this is advice for one who is on a level to be able to make this kind of a chesbon

So you agree that it’s possible to know why troubles are happening without the help of a prophet as long as you’re on the “level.” (I disagree that there is a given level, since the Gemarah seems to talk to the average person, since it’s written Stam “if a person comes on him suffering” and not “if someone on a high level comes upon him suffering. Plus, there is no Hechrech to say it, except for a personal feeling. (So thus it can’t be proved or disproved either, because it’s base don opinion as you wrote “I still believe as I stated before that we are no longer on a level to be able to do this.” It’s a belief))

This is what I have been saying all along

quote:

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Originally posted by Rav Chaim:


Also, since we brought down from their Sefarim that they deffinitly said why the Holocaust came from (even if you want to put your head in the sand for the other ones.) Thus that the statement that saying the reason for punishment is “bad theoligy that is worse than bad deeds.” Is a total Bizai for the Heiliga Steipler Goan and Hagoan Hatzadik Rav Avigdor Miller. I call on you, as a man of your principle, standing up where there is Bizuy Talmud Chachum and to condem the above statement.

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It appears that Rav Miller and the Steipler are saying basically the same thing as the Meshech Chochmah,which Rav Aharon has already explained.
Altho you don't have to agree with his understanding of it(altho it would behoove you to read his entire article and seeing his proofs before you dismiss it out of hand)you cannot accuse those who do agree with this to be transgressing bizui chachamim,since in their opinion there is no one other than you who takes this stance.

The Steipler says Mifairush that it's Midah Kineged Midah (so you can't say that it's only they caused on themselves.)
Rabbi Miller's quote I don't have in front of me to analize whether you can use a plunger to put it in his words. Maybe friday i'll have the ability.

Your thye only one with the book, so the only way I'll have Shaychis to see it if you quote it.

If your pushing that P'shat in these gedolims' words, you can also claim that I'm saying like that also

The Rambam is certainly not to be dismissed so easily. The Rambam is talking generally and specifically. We cant know the value in G-ds eyes of someone’s merits or inequities, and cant therefore "decree" against them. I think the aforementioned incident during the time of the gulf war illustrates this point well. At a time when human logic decrees ill against G-ds nation, Hashem himself saw the exact opposite, that they were deserving of great miracles. The rambams qualification of Hashems justice systems is the only way to explain the mistake(, other than perhaps Rav Kaminetskys dreams.)
That Chazal explained certain tragedies was something for Chazal with their Ruach Hakodesh, ie. this was something that was reveled to them, not something they worked out themselves.
Rabbi Akiva would be no proof if, as you said, he was a tzadik v'ra lo, and were discussing a rasha vrah lo. I would however defer once again to the Rambam who says clearly, the title of tzadik and rasha are for hahsem ALONE to decide. On what basis are you calling them rashayim?

With regards to the gemmara i do see a mashmaut from rashi that were not speaking to the regular person, but rather someone who is mostly pure and could find what to perhaps be "toleh" his "yesurim" on. the continuation of the gemmora is even a better indication that we're are talking about a "bal madraga". A) someone who has no sins to be tole in other than bittul tora, B) hes so great that he dosent even has "bittul tora".

To Chaim of LA,
I still don’t think that the Rambam has anything to do with our question. He’s saying Hashem can only know the full weight of Mitzvos. The building up of steady sin can make one make an assessment to put that together with the punishment, B’frat if you see the Midah K’neged Midah. The story with Rav Shach is no proof, besides what I already wrote, I don’t think he was saying it as a prophet of doom, but rather as a warning of what could happen. This itself caused other to realize how dire the situation to do T’shuva. Gadol M’siras HaTabos. Thus is why they were saved. The same way we realize that it was Hashem saved us, we must realize why Hashem brought the Tzarah in the 1st place.

What you write that Chazal only knew through Ruach Hakodesh, this cannot fit into the Rambam that says that only Hashem knows the weight, but it was also Chazal knew, so we must say they’re talking about 2 different things.

Further more, we see not like this in Megilah 12a, that Rashbi’s Talmidim asked why were the Jews decreed to be destroyed in those days? How can they ask such a question of their Rebbi if it’s something that’s not Taloy B’svarah. Are they asking did you receive some message from above about this? This is not probable. But even more strange is that he asked them why they thought that it happened. It’s one thing to assume the rebbi might have ruach Hakodesh, but the Talmidim? And also they were wrong, because Rashbi gave them a S’varah why their reason didn’t make sense.

Also the Gemarah in Nidarim, why the land was destroyed. They asked the Chachumim why it happened and nobody knew until Hashem told them through the Nevium. If it’s true that even Chachumim only knew through Ruach Hakodesh, and without it they’re lost, so what’s the Have Amina they would know without Hashem telling them. So it would appear that they figured it out with logic.

In regard to how we can consider Rishayim and tzadikim. I think that Halachakly we can. The Gemarah in Kiddushin says if someone is Mikadesh on condition that he’s a Tazadik or Rasha, it’s a Sufaik, since they could of done T’shuva or Micharet ol Harishonos. So bar these factors we can tell who’s a Tzadik and Who’s a Rasha. Even these things you don’t need to be Chayish only Michumras Eishes Ish, and the Gemarah in Brachos says only a Talmid Chachum you need to say that he did T’shuvah. Especially if you see punishment, you don’t need to be Chayish if they did an underground T’shuva.

The Gemarah in Brachos says Stama “If someone has Yesurin on him”. Does not say “if a great Baal Madrega has Yesurin on him”. This would seem to go on everyone, whether he’s a great Baal Madrega or not. This what it says that if he doesn’t find anything (which would seem that this would not be the norm, but just if it happens) then you can be Tole on Yesurin shel Ahavah.