(CHaim of LA, see above post)
RAbbi Kacev,
Rabbi Miller's quote
"Because of the upsurge of the greatest defection from Torah in history, which was expressed in Poland by materialism, virulent anti-nationalism, and Bundism (radical anti-religious socialism, God’s plan finally relieved them of all freewill and sent Hitler’s demons to end the existence of the communities." ("Rejoice, 0 Youth", pp. 278—289).
from "God’s plan finally relieved them of all freewill and sent Hitler’s demons " would seem to say that Hashem sent them and not that they caused their own anti-semitism

Rav Chayyim said;
"The Gemarah in Brachos says Stama “If someone has Yesurin on him”. Does not say “if a great Baal Madrega has Yesurin on him”. This would seem to go on everyone, whether he’s a great Baal Madrega or not."

A Gemmorah that is not specific as to what it means---I guess we never find such a thing.

Is he saying that God sent Hitler's demons, and that the Nazis had no choice but to commit the Holocaust? Of course not. He simply meant that God allowed them to do their evil work which was brought on by the Anti-semitism which occured.

To Rabbi Kacev,
About the difference of Bachira when Hashem wants to destroy something, I think the Yesod is in the “Tisha B’av” Gemarah in Gittin. Firstly, would you say that Hashem didn’t cause the Churban Bais Hamikdash? It was the Babylonians and the Romans, and nothing to do with Hashem’s will? This, of course is nonsense. Hashem wanted the destruction, and if it wasn’t one guy, he’ll find another to help to power to destroy it. You’ll always have people who are willing to destroy Jews, the question is does Hashem put them in power, or they are some lonely farmer up in the hills.

The Gemarah brings a Maasah with Neron Caesar that he shot arrows to the 4 directions and they all landed in Jerusalem. Then he asked Jewish kids their P’sukim, and they said to the point that you’ll destroy Jeruselem but Hashem will punish you for it. So he said that Hashem wants Jerusalem destroyed and then blame it on me. He ran away (and converted) and Rome sent someone else to take his place. From this we see clearly that
a) What the Goyim do is from Hashem’s plan
b) That they do have Bachira not to do it, but it still doesn’t affect the outcome, because there is always someone else that will do it
c) That the Goyim get punished for doing this which Hashem wanted to be done (Golel Chov Al Yiday Chayiv) You can also find the reason in what the Rishonim say why was Mitzrayim punished for being Mikayim a Nevuah.

Another Gemarah there, where Nevuzaradin was feeling proud of his conquering, a heavenly voice came down asking why he’s proud. You’re killing dead people and burning a burnt building. You’re grinding already ground flour. This we learn that when Hashem lets the Goyim destroy us, they’re only doing what was already decreed. They where murdering a nation of dead people

About what you said about “A Gemmorah that is not specific as to what it means---I guess we never find such a thing. “ Is this to say that you can’t make any Diyukim from the Gemarah. Since all Gemarahs are B’chezkas not specific to what it means, so it doesn’t lend itself to make any Diyukim. Not only that, but it will also mean that we can never know what any Gemarah saying, since they’re not specific, so how can anyone know what it’s talking about at all. Rather, everything is specific, unless that there is a definite proof that it can’t be. But as a rule it must b Miduyik.

The rambam still seems to be saying otherwise, without making the distinction of alowing us to decide where there is built up sin. this is even clearer from what the Rambam himself writes in Ageret Hashmad.
For one he quotes the Midrash in Shir Hashirim, (1,6) where Hashem berates the navi, Yishaya, for speaking bad against the jews. He is told by G-d, to speack against yourslef, is one thing but dont speack aginst my people. he was acctully punished for this. Let us not forget but Yishaya was a prophet and being so what he said was true, not speculative (as the aforementioned), yet he was still reprimanded and punished. The rambam elaborates, but i think enough said.
I think that the raye form Kidushin is a raye (quite the opposite). i dont think there is any point in explaing it either way because this is not an argument of proofs but of ideologys, therefore making a (detailed) analyzation of texts usless. i hope this point wont be taken in the wrong vein.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: chaim of losangeles,

Dear Chaim of LA,
I think it’s very important to analize texts and not “because this is not an argument of proofs but of ideologys, therefore making a (detailed) analyzation of texts usless. “ Since our arguments is not in our personal opinions (which I’m sure there are plenty out there, more than a dime a dozen), but rather what is the ideoligy of the Torah. With whom does the Torah agree with. If I bring a proof from Kiddushin that you can tell where a person is holding, it needs to be dealt with. Not because this is my opinion, but to show that this is Daas Torah, and not just an opinion.

But that is cvlearly not the case. Of course we both think our opinion is Dat Tora, however in all likelihood we will not be convinced by another proof but rather see it in the ;ight of our opinion. eg. You tried to bring a proof from brachot, which i see as irrelevant to this disscusion, i tried to bring a proof from the rambam but you see it as irrelavant. and so the cycle will continue.
i dont mean to ignore your proof from kidushin but rather to say, you can work out what my answer will be yourself, and i think this disscusion has reached its crux. has it not?

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
Of Course Hashem can step in and protect the person. But my point was that we can find im many cases that a person can be killed by another person before his time.

Rabbi, I'm curious... dieing before "your" time seems to go against the concept that everyone has a purpose to fulfill. If a person dies before their time then what could possibly have caused HaShem to remove the purpose that that person was born to fulfill? If a person fulfills their purpose then only two things remain, they either pass from this life, or they remain, which must mean that they either accumulated the zchut for a long life, or they have other purposeful events that they must engage in. My Refs: the Baal Shem Tov, and Rebbe Nachman of Breslov... among others.] Todah!

Perhaps because people have free will, they could get themselves to a point where they could no longer do the loftier role that they could have had in creation. However, they still exist because they have a more minor role that is consequently shorter.