The Gemara says that Moshe Rabeinu made a Kal Vachomer .If korban Pesach which is only one Mitzva kol ben nechar lo yochal bo ,Klal Yisroel who are at this stage mumrim so much more. I don't understand. They already were mechuyav in Mitzvos .Did Moshe Rabeinu felt they don't have to keep Shabbos or any other Mitzva why?

I think it means that just as a "mumar" is not fit to eat the Korban Pesach, which is only 1 of 613, if the whole People are mumarim, how much more so are they not fit to receive the whole Torah. Possibly that meant that Moshe considered no one on Earth was worthy to receive it (as the other nations had already rejected it).

but they were already obligated to keep the Tora. Would it mean that they weren't worthy to know what to do and what not to do and therefore would constantly transgress the Tora (not knowing the Halachos)

it has been taught by Rav If you give a gift to your neighbor you have to notify him beforehand...

so it was with the Holy One Blessed be It, made known that It had a gift to give to us (Israel) from It's Treasury which was the tablet of Stone. however we have yet recieve this gift thus under no olibgation to take care of it. however once the second set was made our gift was given to us.

the question is raise in Ein Yaacov why did moshe break the tablet? in which Moshe realize that just as one outsider can not partake of the passover sacfices how much more so this congration (Israel) which are like minim should not eat the word of Torah. which i think Stephen is refering to.


Ein yaacov Shabat

Do you mean to say tha the Jews weren't mekabel tht Tora yet? with naase venishma there was already a full kabolas haTora

I think Moshe intended that the Torah be forfeit.

This is not a reply rather another few questions on the Gemara Shabbos. The Mishna derives from the chiyuv perisha before Matan Tora that shichvas zera is metamei when coming out from the woman's womb within 3 or 4 days.Tosfos points out that although there weren't any dinei tum'a (it was before Matan Tora) nevertheless ,it refers to the future tum'os.
Actually, the question is twofold.A) there were no hilchos tum'ah B) Klal Yisrael didn't have a status of Jews to be mekabeil tum'ah .As far as the second part of the question goes (which also is only bec. of becoming the future Klal Yisrael),how do we understand an act of tevilah.Since there wasn't any actual tum'ah was function did the tevila had?
Tosfos later states that the Tora only was conserned with tum'at keri which comes because of lightheadness.I have two questions on that. 1) there should be no requirement for women to become tahor ;it's only kalus rosh on the man's part.2) If a man became a baal keri the day before Matan Tora wouldn't tevila be sufficient?

quote:

Do you mean to say tha the Jews weren't mekabel tht Tora yet? with naase venishma there was already a full kabolas haTora

please explain a little more.

my point is that when Bne Yisroel made the egel they were already obligated to keep theentire Tora because by saying naase venishma they accepted it among themself.Making the eigel just meant they trangressed a commitment which by no way can take of their covenant with Hashem.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Phillips:
I think Moshe intended that the Torah be forfeit.

Initially it was hard to me to accept your point .It would have meant that they would constantly be transgressors. I thought, however, that you might be right. A ben nechar ,meaning a mumar to avoda zara is forbidden to eat the korban pessach and, hence, to slaughter it for his chiyuv.It is quite possible that he'll be chayav kareth for not fullfilling the Mitzva of korban pessach (I haven't got a chance to check out if this assumption is correct).It this is so ,then this Issur for the ben nechar includes the concept that although one is obligated in a Mitzva ,one's aveira can put him into a situation that he'll be prevented from fullfilling his chiyuvim.

I still, however have aproblem with the kal vachomer .It is identical to mumar with korban pesach ;both are guilty of avoda zara. But maybe we can say that just standing at Maamad Har Sinai made it a more severe aveira

See Tosfos D"H Umah Pesach that it's not really a good Kal V'chomer (that is why it's Midato). He says that even though someone can't eat Pesach since it's a Korbon doesn't mean he shouldn't give the TOrah to return them to Teshuva

To "receive" the Torah is even more than to just be obligated to keep its mitzvos.
To recieve it means it is YOURS. You (Beis Din) can decide on Halachic issues, and what you decide is final. Because it belongs to you, no longer in Heaven.
That's a lot of responsibility...

Would you give authority over sensitive Torah issues to someone suspected of idolatrous behavior?