Sorry that this is the wrong time of year, but I got wondering about the two days Shavuot. If the reason we have two days festivals in the diaspora is because in Temple times the messengers couldn't reach the diaspora communities before the time of the festival was due to begin, how can this be relevant to Shavuot? This festival is calculated as being the 50th day after Pesach, by which time everyone would have been informed of when Pesach actually began, so there was no need for any confusion.

Thus, why the need for an extra day?

A good question and one to which the answer will show that second day Shavuos is more strict than the second days of the other Festivals.

You are right; we don't need a second day of Shavuos as it merely depends on when Pesach falls. However, the Sages did not want there to be confusion and so they decided that all the Festivals (including Shavuos) should have a second day.

So we see that whereas the other Festivals have a second day because of a custom that has been handed down to us, the second day of Shavuos is because of a decree of the Rabbis, making it more strict.

I heard recently that the newly revived Beit Din HaGadol is considering a debate to do away with the two day minhagim in the galut. Has anyone else heard the same?

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
I heard recently that the newly revived Beit Din HaGadol

Is this something that is for real?

only possiby if sombody accepts the authority of the bais din hagdol. which is a very big if.

Can you explain further what is the "if"?

Sam;

I suspect the big IF is because there has not been a ground swell to support the Beit Din HaGadol. However, this is only an embryonic revival. Many Gedolim are represented on this body by their sons or other proxies. So this acquiescence does not make it an illegitimate body. Probably in a crisis, if they have prepared themselves, it could rise to the occasion and become the definitive authority in Israel. We are not there yet.

MK Fink;

So far the Beit Din HaGadol has not done anything that would test its authority. Even if a test failed, the Beit Din HaGadol has been around for only one year, with no budget to speak of. I suspect most Gedolim would support it.

Besides, I can't imagine any Gedolim dismissing it offhand. If they don't support it, they would have the obligation to give a very good reason why and that would be the basis for fixing it until the Beit Din HaGadol is completely restored. So in reality, there is no turning back. Anyone who challenges it has the obligation to do something about it.

As a matter of record the Gedolim have come out against this Beis Din and have said they do not have the power to make any binding halachos.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Sorry that this is the wrong time of year, but I got wondering about the two days Shavuot. If the reason we have two days festivals in the diaspora is because in Temple times the messengers couldn't reach the diaspora communities before the time of the festival was due to begin, how can this be relevant to Shavuot? This festival is calculated as being the 50th day after Pesach, by which time everyone would have been informed of when Pesach actually began, so there was no need for any confusion.

Thus, why the need for an extra day?

So its the wrong time of year. The meor hakatan (end of peshachim) asks why don't we count two days of the Omer from sephek. There are about five answers, but the relevant one is that we do not have two days of holiday in galut because of sefak. We have had an calculated calender for centuries. Two days of galut are a minhag.
I presume you can wait till Rosh Hashana to find out why we have two days of Rosh Hashana in Israel eventhough the minhag for a thousand years or so was to just do one day.


Aryeh Shore

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
As a matter of record the Gedolim have come out against this Beis Din and have said they do not have the power to make any binding halachos.

What is the case for and against? I've heard a lot, but what is the story here?

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
<quote snipped>

What is the case for and against? I've heard a lot, but what is the story here?

It would be helpful if the posters who say that the Gedolim are for or against this would be more specific. Just who said what, when did they say it, and how do we know they did -- is it in print? Ditto for similar statments about their actions.

My understanding is that the big issue is about how one may reinstitute a Sanhedrin in our day. From what I recall, that requires reinstituting the original form of semicha that started with Moshe Rabbenu passing his role onto Yehoshua, and ended well before the closing of the Talmud. The only way I'd heard of to reinstate it requrires agreement from all the rabbis of Eretz Yisrael, something we clearly don't have.

I don't have the exact date, but a few months ago the editor of Yated Neeman wrote a front page story discussing the new Sanhedrin, and explaining why, according to him, it had no real legitimacy as a "sanhedrin." If anyone has access to a library with back issues that would be a good place to look for more discussion.

For what it's worth, none of the rabbis I've ever discussed it with have taken in seriously, or heard of any of the Gedolim taking it seriously.

Kol tuv,

Steve Albert

quote:

Besides, I can't imagine any Gedolim dismissing it offhand. If they don't support it, they would have the obligation to give a very good reason why and that would be the basis for fixing it until the Beit Din HaGadol is completely restored. So in reality, there is no turning back. Anyone who challenges it has the obligation to do something about it.

in fact i have had a hard time finding a rav, outside this group, that does take it seriously. there is no concern about going back when the have yet to go forward. It is absolutely their responsiblity to prove legitimacy, nobody is required to prove them illegitimate. in fact it appears that most are choosing to ignore them.

SamK asked the right question. Who are these Gedolim? What have they specifically said (for or against). I'm still to see something written by any Gedolim saying this is not a legitimate Beit Din HaGadol. Just because they cannot yet make any binding rulings does not mean they are not legitimate. They are simply formative. If you look at how the origianl Beit Din HaGadol was established, then how it was reestablished after the Babylonian exile and then what the Rambam has to say, there is nothing illegitimate about this beit din. The idea that all Gedolim in Israel must agree is true only when the Beit Din HaGadol has matured enough to make binding rulings. Under normal circumstances you can never get Jewish Gedolim to agree on anything, that's no reason not to establish a Beit Din HaGadol. I'm personally FOR the idea primarily because I have not heard any Gedolim with a convincing argument that it's not legitimate. Perhaps there are Gedolim out there...I'd like to hear or see what they said. I also personally know of at least two Gedolim who are represented there by proxies. I know that means nothing. The bottom line is that someone who claims to be a Gadol, on whatever basis, must stand up and say this is not a legitimate Beit Din for these reasons and enumerate them.

If I say I'm the world champion boxer, it means nothing until I challenge the reigning champion and prevail. Talk is cheap! For the past 1600 years or so we’ve had an ad hoc and roving Beit Din Hagadol consisting of “Gedolei Yisrael”. This has been an informal recognition of the best rabbonim of any generation. But it was not ideal. Today, Rav Elyashiv shlita and Rav Yosef shlita have re-established smicha for the Beit Din HaGadol. How many “Gedolei Yisrael” are there today? Ten, perhaps...200 or maybe 1000? I don’t know. Who decides, according to the current system, what’s a “Gadol Yisrael” and what’s not? The Beit Din HaGadol becomes the revived tool to formalize who is a Gadol and who isn’t. So rabbonim who insist on not being part of the this formalization may disqualify themselves, eventually. Any Gadol who wants to challenge Rav Elyashiv and Rav Yosev is free to do so but the Beit Din HaGadol, by it’s establishment, becomes the formal arbiter. Any challenger would have to write a responsa or ruling saying. “I’m Gadol Yisrael #116th on x,y,z grounds and I think Elyashiv and Yosef are not Gedolim worthy of the smicha for 1,2,3 reasons and no one should recognize this body”. Sure I have heard talk here and talk there, but talk is cheap.

The halacha was made clear the last time that they tried to reestablish semicha in Eretz Yisrael in the time of Rav Yosef Karo. They could not get the Rabbis of Jerusalem to agree with the Rabbis of Tzefat so it didn't happen. Bottom line: The Rambam says you need all of the rabbis in Israel to agree. No one else brought up the idea.
This bet din is really of the radar. I haven't seen anyone discuss it.

Ayreh Shore

Aryeh Shore;
I'm sure you have an idea how many people have smicha in Israel. Do you really believe that the Rambam intended for EVERY SINGLE ONE of them to be in consesus? That's impossible, even on a good day. At such a rate there would never be a Beit Din HaGadol.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Aryeh Shore;
I'm sure you have an idea how many people have smicha in Israel. Do you really believe that the Rambam intended for EVERY SINGLE ONE of them to be in consesus? That's impossible, even on a good day. At such a rate there would never be a Beit Din HaGadol.

And that is why nobody takes steinsaltz (or even-yisroel)and company seriously. what they are attempting to do is not happening. what you consider quiet acceptance is actually rabonim hoping that if they ignore this it will go away.

Besides the Halachic ramifications against it, as AS brought out and was in the Yated by Rabbi Y. Kaganoff. Besides we see that the Mahri Berav and Bais Yosef’s BD didn’t work out. Also that Rabbi Maimon and R’ Goran’s BD was met strict opposition by the Brisker Rav and Rav A. Kotler. Also, I would like to point out that I think that the purpose of the BD is to uproot the authority of the Gedolei Yisrael so in order to be able to enact their Shitos and make them “the offical Shita against the more Chareidi Gedolim.

My theory is based on this excerpt from an article from Aarutz 7 that shows what agendas they have


“Among the many topics the Sanhedrin intends to address are the bridging of the divisions between various communities of Jewish exiles who have returned to Israel; the establishment of authentic techelet, the biblical blue thread Jews are commanded to wear amongst the fringes attached to four-cornered garments; the definition of the measurement of the "ammah" (the biblical cubit); the determination of the exact point of human death, so as to deal with the Jewish ethics of euthanasia; and the issue of agunot - women whose husbands refuse to grant them a divorce. “

These issues were already Paskined by Gedolei yisrael or was rejected by them. These are politically based issues, like to do organ reaping or annul marriages.

i believe that steinsaltz (even-yisroel), the claimed av-sanhedrin, is a lubavitcher. i don't know about the political afiliations of others involved. i agree with chaim that this is a political positioning, but i will go one step further and ask if it might be positioning for the hearts, minds and souls of yidden by certain individuals or the groups that they represent?

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Aryeh Shore;
I'm sure you have an idea how many people have smicha in Israel. Do you really believe that the Rambam intended for EVERY SINGLE ONE of them to be in consesus? That's impossible, even on a good day. At such a rate there would never be a Beit Din HaGadol.

The Rambam is not explicit. One can surmise that he is talking about all the rabbis who are member of bet dinim. In any event the objection of the Rabbis of Jerusalem (the radbaz) were halachic that that is not what the Rambam meant.
As for getting everyone to agree on something in this country, you have to be kidding. They couldn't get all the Rabbis to sign that homosexuality is against the torah (what, my name would appear on the same list as). Time and time again we see major halachic initiatives shot down at the last minute (literally) by one rabbi objecting.

Aryeh Shore

Rav Chaim,
I may agree with you on everything you say except one thing. That is the purpose of the Beit Din HaGadol. When you say "political" I'm not sure what you mean. The Rambam, Ibn Daud, even the Ramban all state that the Beit Din HaGadol is constitutive. So when you say all these issues have been poseked already, it's true but it's been done in the absence of the Beit Din haGadol. Theoretically, all halachot established after the demise of the Beit Din HaGadol are subject to review by the Beit Din HaGadol. So once a Beit Din HaGadol is in place it has the authority to posek anew issues that have not had the benefit of Beit Din HaGadol oversight. In this regard, you are correct in that it is political because it annuls the Gedolim and becomes the ultimate Gadol....which it is meant to be. In a word, as the beit Din HaGadol gains recognition, and "Gedolei Yisrael" who don't participate will disqualify themselves. They will become attenuated. As for the current Beit Din haGadol; it's embryonic. When a woman is pregnant you don't say she has a baby although it's inevitable that she will. I believe our job is to prepare for it. Yes, it's under the radar, but that's where it's supposed to be, for now.