quote:

When a woman is pregnant you don't say she has a baby although it's inevitable that she will

Is there perhaps a more accurate term than "inevitable" given that miscarriages can and do happen?

And similarly, are there any possibilities that a Sanhedrin cannot be formed on our own before we have the Third and Final Beis Hamikdash, and thus any effort now might be premature -- and perhaps to continue the analogy, as illigitimate as would be a pregnancy before marriage?

quote:

Posted November 27, 2005 21:19

quote:
When a woman is pregnant you don't say she has a baby although it's inevitable that she will



Is there perhaps a more accurate term than "inevitable" given that miscarriages can and do happen?

And similarly, are there any possibilities that a Sanhedrin cannot be formed on our own before we have the Third and Final Beis Hamikdash, and thus any effort now might be premature -- and perhaps to continue the analogy, as illigitimate as would be a pregnancy before marriage?

I agree with your analogy. This Beit Din HaGadol may abort yet. But the arguments given so far are not enough to abort it. Even the Rambam did not make the construction of the Beit HaMikdash a precondition for the Beit Din HaGadol. Indeed, the establishment of the Beit HaMikdash requires the Beit Din HaGadol. Which means the Beit Din HaGadol must preceed the Beit HaMikdash. In any case, there are differing opinions on these issues. We even once had two different Sanhedrins concurrently. My point is that today we have an embryonic Beit Din HaGadol with the participation of the likes of Rav Elyashiv shlita and Rav Yosef shlita. Unless, someone successully challenges it, it will become the definitive assembly by default. Going back to the analogy; the abortion/miscarriage has to be caused by something with efficacy. So far, there is nothing with efficacy on the horizon. If this body survives long enough, when all of today's Gedolim are dead, the next generation won't look at it the same way. Don't forget the Rambam's work, which we consider definitive today, was heavily contested during his day. The Shulchan Aruch, by which we live today, was heavily discredited during its day.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
[QUOTE]Posted November 27, 2005 21:19

My point is that today we have an embryonic Beit Din HaGadol with the participation of the likes of Rav Elyashiv shlita and Rav Yosef shlita. Unless, someone successully challenges it, it will become the definitive assembly by default.

why would ir be definitive by default.
the burden is on this supposed sanhedrin to prove it's legitimacy; not on others to prove it's illegitamacy.
The approach that many rabonim are taking is to ignore it. which is a vote against it.
if the sanhedrin is ever really going to happen it will be because they convince rabonim and dayanim that they are valid. not the other way around.

quote:

My point is that today we have an embryonic Beit Din HaGadol with the participation of the likes of Rav Elyashiv shlita and Rav Yosef shlita.

One posting asserted that there have not been any actual definitive statements by Gadolim that we should consider this to be the real thing. Have you seen such statements by Rav Elyashiv or Rav Yosef? That would certainly be significant!

Otherwise, your point seems to be that if it is ignored until after we no longer have our current Gadolim, then it will have definitive standing? Perhaps its more the other way around -- that if it never takes flight, nor ever gets a clear endorsement, it will remain grounded, or inconsequential.

Rob;
In my earlier post I mentioned that these two are represented by their sons or proxies on the Beit Din HaGadol. But more significantly, it is Rav Elyashiv shlita who re-introduced the smicha. Does he have to write some big drasha or responsa? He gave the smicha to the Beit Din HaGadol...you don't get any bigger than that. This smicha has not been challenged by anyone on halachic grounds. Rav Yosef shlita endorsed the smicha on the Sefardic side. For the past year they have been getting smicha to all the Gedolim concerned.

To answer your question about it never getting off the ground; that's a moot point, it's already off the ground. You just don't hear about it because they are staying low-key on purpose. The only way to kill it is for someone to challenge it on halachic grounds. I don't know anyone with "shoulders" doing it, because in doing so he is saying he's got bigger shoulders than they. I don't know any real Gadol who would be so brash. In fact, all the members of the Beit Din HaGadol are only provisional members until someone who feels he's got bigger shoulders can assume their place. Don't forget it's supposed to consist of the best Gedolim we have in our generation.

MK Fink;
Being that the Beit Din HaGadol is constitutive, once established, the burden of proof is on the challenger, not the other way round. Once established, it's not the job of the Beit Din HaGadol to prove it's legitimacy. This is the reason why we had two Sanhedrins once in our history, each claiming to be the legitimate one. At the end of the day, it's in halacha. If you have 71 Gedolim with smicha from Rav Elyashiv shlita, the burden of proof is on you not the 71 Gedolim. That's our current situation

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Rob;
In my earlier post I mentioned that these two are represented by their sons or proxies on the Beit Din HaGadol. But more significantly, it is Rav Elyashiv shlita who re-introduced the smicha. Does he have to write some big drasha or responsa? He gave the smicha to the Beit Din HaGadol...you don't get any bigger than that. This smicha has not been challenged by anyone on halachic grounds. Rav Yosef shlita endorsed the smicha on the Sefardic side. For the past year they have been getting smicha to all the Gedolim concerned.

I Don't know where you are getting this information from, but no one is aware of any such proclamation from Rav Eliyashiv or any other godol. If you have any source to back up this claim, please let us know, because it will be news to everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
At the end of the day, it's in halacha. If you have 71 Gedolim with smicha from Rav Elyashiv shlita, the burden of proof is on you not the 71 Gedolim. That's our current situation

i have not had time to review the entire mishna brira this evening, but i don't understand the above quote.

Rav Kacev;
Following a quote from a letter circulated towards the end of last year by reliable sources. But the best information is from the Secretary General of the Beit Din HaGadol at http://www.beith-din.com. That way you are getting information first hand. Rav Dov Stein is the General Secretary and a good friend. He will be more than happy to furnish you with all the information you need. BTW, Rav Adin Steinsaltz is now the official Nasi. If you are looking for a "public" news story, the best I can do right now is this;
http://www.israelforum.co.il/forum/showthread.php?t=263
But I'm sure I can find a better "public" story.
______________________________________________

... Rav 'Ovadiah Yoseph was filmed expressing his hasqamah (validation) and giving his berakhah (blessing). In fact, both Rav 'Ovadiah and Rav Elyashiv personally ordained the rabbi who was to confer semikhah (ordination) upon Rabban Tzvi. Rav Kaminetsky gave his hasqamah and blessing as well. These facts have been verified; they are not rumors.

At present, the Sanhedrin is not entirely composed of those truly fitting to be there. However, the Sages assumed their seats on condition that they are ready to give them up to anyone greater in wisdom. That is but one
expression of incredible humility and feeling of fellowship and brotherhood
that marked the reinstatement ceremony, according to Eliyahu Levine, one
observer who travelled from Beit Shemesh to witness the event. G-d willing,
the Sanhedrin will soon be completely filled with the greatest,
highest-ranking Torah scholars of the nation...

...1) R. Avraham Toledano is a great scholar of Rambam, as well as a Breslover Hasid, and dear friend of my primary teacher Mori Shelomo.

2) R. Adin Steinsaltz is the brilliant, renowned author of a world-famous commentary on the Babylonian Talmud, in modern Hebrew and English. He is certainly one of the foremost Talmudic scholars of our generation.

3) R. Yoseph Maghory-Kohen is functionally the chief rabbi of Kokhav Ya'aqov, a growing settlement town, north of Jerusalem. His family is one of the only priestly families with an authentic, written pedigree, proving
its direct patrilineal descent to Yehoyariv, a priestly clan expressly mentioned in the Bible.

4) R. Barukh Marzel is a brave and popular leader from Qiryath Arba'(Hebron). He is a Torah scholar, as well as a national figure and symbol of Jewish pride in the face of Arab terror. He is famous for his courageous run in the last elections, against a sea of opposition.

5) R. Nahman Kahana (brother of the late, great rabbi): What an honor to Rav Meir's memory, HaShem yinqom damo, that his brother sits on the
Sanhedrin he never lived to see.

6) R. Tzvi Shani-Dor is what we call a maqorist: an independent Torah scholar whose opinions are derived directly from a deep knowledge of the
Talmudic sources. His great knowledge is joined with a liberal, Hassidic outlook. He is a consistent member of our local Rambam minyan, and a personal friend.

7) R. Yoseph Rotshtein is a progessive, Hassidic, maqorist rabbi and a poseq. He is a master of Talmud Yerushalmi, and an idealist who refuses to make a living from learning, as the Rambam teaches.

8) R. Elimelech Leifer, is a bold maqorist. He is a Nadvorna Hasid, and grandson of the great Admo"r Mi-Nadvorna, the famous Nadvorna Rebbe of
blessed memory. An ardent truth seeker in a highly traditional community in which independent thinking is discouraged, Ribbi Leifer adopted authentic Yemenite pronunciation (lashon ha-qodash), and wears tephillin throughout the day.

9) R. Yisrael Ariel is the head of Machon HaMiqdash (The Holy Temple) and considered to be the world's greatest expert on all matters relating to the Beith HaMiqdash. Under his guidance, many vessels were restored for use in
the Third Temple, including the golden Menorah and ShulHan. His famous institute is presently involved with recreating the Breast Plate of the High Priest.

R. Dov Shtein, secretary of the Great Sanhedrin, has been working hard on the renewing the Court for the last 20 years. As webmaster of
WWW.BEITH-DIN.COM, he illuminated readers with his insight. His faith and efforts have finally paid off.

11) R. Yehudah 'Edri, the actual prime initiator of the Reinstitution, is an accomplished author and leader of the Movement for the Rebuilding of
the Temple.

12) His Honor the Nassi, Rabban Tzvi 'Idan, Rosh HaSanhedrin! He is the founder and long-time head of a kollel of Torah scholars, dedicated to the renewal of the Sanhedrin. He is the author of the "bible" on Sanhedrin renewal, Assoth Mishpat: Hiddush Ha-Semikhah Bizeman Hazzeh" ("To Exercise Law: Renewing True Rabbincal Ordination in This Era"), After 25 years of
work, his dream has come to fruition, and HaShem has rewarded him with the Nesi'uth--the Presidency!

In truth, Rabban 'Idan is functioning as an interim Nassi until a permanent Nassi is elected. Currently, he acts as chairman of the organization...

________________________________________________

As I mentioned, the Nasi has already been elected and that's Rav Steinsaltz

I am sorry, but I saw nothing in that letter that said Rav Eliyashiv gave his approval to the Beis din. Neither was anything mentioned of this in the web site you reffered to. Thirdly there was no mention of who wrote the letter or anything that attests to its veracity.

moshe y

i am sure that all the people that you listed are ehrlich yidden, it would certainly be a pleasure to learn torah and make aquaintance from as many of them as you have. and, it is obvious that they all believe in what they are doing. the problem is that many other rabonim and gedolei hatorah do not agree with them. silence does not mean agreement. that is a precedent that has not and cannot be established.

Moshe Yisraeli,
If Rav Elyashev would have endorsed it, then it would of been accepted or R' Elyashiv would have been kicked off being the head Chareidi Posek. Since neither happened, I have high doubts that he endorsed it.

But besides that, just as a question. Those that are involved in the Sanhedrin, would you call them mostly right-wingers or left wingers?

Rav Kacev;
I didn't say Rav Elyashiv gave his approval. I said he gave his smicha and at least one of the articles said so. As I mentioned, you need first hand information because anything I tell you, you will dispute. If you want to call Rav Stein I can give you his phone number privately.
______________________________

"... Rav 'Ovadiah Yoseph was filmed expressing his hasqamah (validation) and giving his berakhah (blessing). In fact, both Rav 'Ovadiah and Rav Elyashiv [personally ordained] the rabbi who was to confer semikhah (ordination) upon Rabban Tzvi. Rav Kaminetsky gave his hasqamah and blessing as well. These facts have been verified; they are not rumors.
_____________________________

I put [personally ordained] in brackets because it means [smicha].

The website I gave you as a means to contact Rav Stein by e-mail.
______________________________

Semicha - original rabbinic ordination as handed down from Moses - was reintroduced by the Sanhedrin recently when hundreds of Israel's greatest rabbis agreed on the worthiness of a particular rabbi to receive it. The committee who oversaw the process made every effort to fulfill the Jewish legal requirements as outlined by Maimonides, as closely as possible.

Leading Sephardic and Ashkenazic spiritual leaders Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Rabbi Shalom Elyashiv also agreed that this rabbi was "fitting to serve."
_____________________________

"Fitting to serve" is certianly not disapproval.


Rav Chaim;
I'm not talking opinions, I'm talking facts that happened. The Beit Din HaGadol's smicha was renewed by Rav Elyashiv, at least one of the articles states that. But if you don't accept it, call Rav Stein, he is the Secretary General. It's not my place to argue for them.

MK Fink;
I hear your argument, but the way it works is that you would have to petition to appear before these 71 chachamim with smicha from Rav Elyashiv and show them the error of their ways. I don't have any shoulders at all and cannot begin to posek on this issue.

Nothing in Klal Yisrael starts with agreement from everyone...nothing.

if i don't believe that they exist (i in this case is meant to represent sombody far more important than myself)why would i go to them. that is acknowledging that they exist and that they matter. many rabonim will not do that, because then they would have to disprove.

MK Fink;
That's the point I made earlier, that once a Beit Din HaGadol has been established, it's constitutive. Any voice disagreeing with it has the burden of proof. So the establishment of one actually silences everyone else unless one were brash and activistic enough. By their silence, other Gedolim have actually attenuated themselves and recused themselves from the process.
Furthermore, when the Rambam said all the Gedolim in Eretz Yisrael he left it open ended.
In fact, your notion that they don't exist, works both ways.

that is presuming that in the future there will be acceptance. i can tell you that where i live they are too busy fighting amongst themselves to get around to this for many generations. a"h moshiach bim heyruveyameinu.

MK Fink;
Of course we don't know what the future holds. But if this body continues to behave in the way I've seen, it will eventually be accepted. We are used to living in a society where there is instant gratification. Many people have said all sorts of things that are impossible by any stretch of the imagination regarding the establishment of the court. It may take an entire generation before it is accepted, if the previous establishments are any indication.

ok let's put this in a more global perspective.
i believe i understand your israeli perspective, you have implied it at length. if i get it wrong please moichel and correct.

there may be enough strength in eretz yisroel to make this work. the maybe is presuming that you are correct, and the support that you claim will materialize. i don't see eidah charedis buying into this in eretz yisroel so it probably could not be universal. but they are noticably absent in your analysis. but they do exist, even if you ignore them.

now my american observations.

what benefit is there to the rosh yeshivas in lakewood or the rebbes in brooklyn to support this in any way at anytime in the history of the world as we know it.
these leaders of the torah world have a valid need for the hearts, minds and wallets of torah jews in chutz l'eretz.
anything that distracts from that is a danger to their ability to exist. therefore, they and their successors will not discuss, acknowledge, debate, refute or in any way allow this to becom an issue. and even if you ignore them they exist.

unlike the "new sanhedrin" they have large dedicated established followings, physical infrastructure and multi-million dollar budgets.

MK Fink;
Now you are talking "real world". In fact, that's my greatest concern. The Beit Din HaGadol does not have a budget to speak of and money comes from the Galut. If Gedolim from the Galut do not support them it's a big problem. This is the reason I say their behavior is exemplary and I believe eventually a critical mass of financial support will materialize. However, there are some Noachides ready and willing to assist them. But they represent a very small amount of help.

Your point is very well taken. I believe, in our lifetime, Jews of the world will be forced to move to Eretz Yisrael anyway. Gedolim in the Galut will have their places on the Beit Din HaGadol nicely warmed up for them. If you recall after the Babylonian exile Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel and Mordechai were some of the movers of the Beit Din HaGadol. Things didn't happen overnight. In fact, Mordechai lost his ranking on the Beit din HaGadol....

I believe real Gedolim, wherever they may be, even if they disagree with the current Beit Din HaGadol still recognize that we are Klal Yisrael and we are in this together. They will eventually figure out ways of making it wirk for Am Yisrael. This is whether they will step forward to be considered for a spot on the court or recuse themselves. The reality of the Beit Din HaGadol won't go away very easily.

What you say about the Haredim; I don't know. That community is going through its changes too. A generation from now, who knows where they would be holding?