quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

When a woman is pregnant you don't say she has a baby although it's inevitable that she will

Is there perhaps a more accurate term than "inevitable" given that miscarriages can and do happen?

How about "Highly Probable".

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Don't forget it's supposed to consist of the best Gedolim we have in our generation.

I heard something that Rabbonim in the Diaspora don't count, and that it's only the rabbis in Israel. Anyone heard this or something similar?

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Rav Kacev;
Following a quote from a letter circulated towards the end of last year by reliable sources. But the best information is from the Secretary General of the Beit Din HaGadol at http://www.beith-din.com. That way you are getting information first hand. Rav Dov Stein is the General Secretary and a good friend. He will be more than happy to furnish you with all the information you need. BTW, Rav Adin Steinsaltz is now the official Nasi. If you are looking for a "public" news story, the best I can do right now is this;
http://www.israelforum.co.il/forum/showthread.php?t=263
But I'm sure I can find a better "public" story.
______________________________________________

http://www.beith-din.com is only in Hebrew?

Sam;
It is correct that Rabbonim in the Galut do not count while they are in the Galut. But if and when they make aliyah they will count.

http://www.beith-din.com is in Hebrew. It just assumes people can read Hebrew. We are trying to help them establish a world class website etc.

Dear people,

This is just impossible to believe. I can not believe that the successor to Rav Shach who put R. Steinsholz in cherem would back a endevour with R. Steinsholz. I mean Rav Shach put his books in Cherem even after they went to a bet din which said that Rav Shach shouldn't do it.

I don't know R. Steinsholz but I know a few people who work with him. I can't imagine him sitting down with two right wing nut cases like Marzel and Kahana. (Forgive me for making a political statement on this forum but I think it is necessary.)

We are talking about a country which made preparations for the last shmita which was agreed by all of the gedolim which collapse at the last minute because one Rav suddenly raised an objection. Unless the meshiach has shown up when I wasn't looking, there is no way that R. Eliyashiv, R. Ovadiah and R. Steinholz would agree on anything on such a scale.


Bottom line: These people do not need the advice of gedolim. The advice they need is from a different profession.

Not so cheerful

Aryeh Shore

better to ignore it
if hashem has decreed it they will find a way
if not, then it will go they way of other unachievable, but admirable ambitions.

Aryeh;
Relax! I hear that many Gedolim on this beit din don't see eye to eye on many things and yet they are willing to come together. That's a very good sign.
It is true that we probably would never agree, but I also know that in a national crisis we would be compelled to do so. Having a body such as this "in waiting" is a good thing. As events of the world show, we may be headed for a crisis. This crisis could very well be a pretext for us to come together in unity. The Beit Din HaGadol would be an appropriate meeting place and for that reason, it's good to have the "shell" of one, for now.

About books in Cherem; it's our minhag to put any new ideas in cherem until the Gedolim of that generation are dead. The Rambam was criticized for the work we consider seminal today. There was a cherem on Rav Karo's Shulchan Aruch in some places. This is our minhag.

MK Fink;
I echo your thoughts on this one. If the Kadosh Baruch Hu has ordained it, it will succeed. If He hasn't, it won't

Edited to correct typo

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gila,

Since nobody gave an answer to my question I’ll give my own answer. It would seem that for the most part, they seem to be leaning left (not politically, but religiously.) It seems like most of them (if not all) come from the Modern Orthodox camp. So we must ask, why do those in the MO camp want to start a Sahedrin? What’s propelling them? What’s wrong with the way things are until now? Obviously the Rambam didn’t hold that there needs to be a Sanhedrin, only if most of the Rabbis decide there is a need for one (like in the days of the BY, so to lash those that were Mishumadim, so they can have a Kaparah) so why should the Rabbis decide there is aneed for it?

My theory is, there is a big difference between the philosophy (Hashkafa) of the Chareidi O and Modern O. Though they’re both Orthodox, but as Laurence Shore says, that his Gedolim are not mine Gedolim (and Vice versa.) This philosophy comes out in the P’sak of their Poskim. That’s why the Modern O. Poskim seem to lean in a certain way in P’sak, thus we see that Modern O. Ways of following Halacha are similar to each other, no matter which Rav they follow. The same is for Chareidi. (Of course the Rabanim in each group have their arguments, but there is a similarity within the 2 groups.) So LS would say that "the other rabbis" have there "Chumrah of the month" while I may feel that "the other rabbis" may have "Kulos for all ‘o-Ccasions’"

This very difference of Hashkafa, which is seen in the P’sakim, make the Chariedi (at best) ignore Modern O. P’sak as if it doesn’t exist. Thus I feel that they’re trying to start a Sanhedrin in order to force their P’sakim as the official Halacha of K’lal Yisrael. Even if the Chareidi decide to join, they’ll make sure that they have a strong voice in the Sanhedrin, thus Rabbi Kahane would have the same vote as Rav Elyashiv and Rabbi Marzhev has the same vote as Rabbi Shteinman etc. Therefore getting their agenda across. (That is why all there agenda, as I posted above, have all the Modern O. Key issues.) So besides the Halacha concerns, this is why the Chariedim will never go along with this, since the reason for this is to undermine their authority.

Rav Chaim;
That's an observation I had never heard before and could very well be true. But if you are talking about Klal Yisrael as the extended body, perhaps 20% (being generous) are shomer mitzvot and would be receptive to the notion of a Beit Din HaGadol. Of that 20% how many do you think would prefer the Chareidi hashkafa? Should that be embraced by all of Klal Yisrael? My understanding is that Sages and Gedolim of ages past went to great lengths to see if a new mishpat would be accepted by Am Yisrael. If it wasn't accepted they would scrap it. Do you really believe that the Chareidi hashkafa would be the preference of Klal Yisrael?

Secondly, did you say that a Beit Din HaGadol is not needed? I thought the Chareidim too were waiting for the Moshiach. Without the Beit Din HaGadol many things cannot happen...coronation, establishement of Beit haMikdash etc. Even if these were not compelling, isn't the presence of the Beit Din HaGadol the ideal situation in Am Yisrael. Our halacha got decentralized because of the exile. But now that we are ruling our land, surely it would be a mitzvah to re-establish it, even without the prospects of the Moshiach and all the rest of it. Israel cannot become a Jewish state without a Beit Din HaGadol. Currently it is a Bolshevic state run by Jews....but it's not a Jewish state, yet.

The argument you raise mimics the US Supreme court scenario where every justice nominated is being tested by the abortion ruling. It seems to some people that's the only thing that matters, but does it reflect what Americans want in their Supreme Court? Does the Chariedi hashkafa reflect Klal Yisrael? Perhaps it doesn't even matter whether the Beit Din HaGadol's hashkafa reflects the general hashkfa of Am Yisrael. But isn't this an issue decided by the Beit Din HaGadol itself? If the Chareidi are outnumbered so goes the vote. A group that says simply "we will not be a part of the process because we will be outvoted" defeats the purpose of the Beit Din HaGadol. There is supposed to be a diversity of opinions....majority and minority opinions, isn't there?

few observations

1. It looks to me and at lot of other people, that the Cheredi poskim are dictating the public agenda in kashrut and other matters and it looks like this will continue for the near future.
2. I don't think you can pin this Sanhedrin idea on the MO. I have never heard of any posek or read in any of our journals someone suggesting that we form a Sanhedrin so can build the temple or bring the messiah. These people seem out of any mainstream designation (maybe they are messianics). The only reason I have seen in print for a Sanhedrin is to change our calender so that Pesach will not come out in the Spring. This will occur in the year 6000 so it is not exactly an urgent call.
3. Again, the difference between MO and Cheredi is less halacha than cultural. We seemed to have developed a new culture which is dominated by the idea of Daas Torah. The idea of Daas Torah is thought to be a non-chassidic response the the dominance of chassidim by their Rebbes.

Aryeh Shore

Aryeh Shore;

Great post!

But you then said,
"The only reason I have seen in print for a Sanhedrin is to change our calender so that Pesach will not come out in the Spring. This will occur in the year 6000 so it is not exactly an urgent call."

I've never heard this one before. What's the reasoning behind such a change?

if we are going to get in to the discussion of the necessity of the sanhedrin to bring moshiach we should stick to the obvious.
klal yisroel has much work to do before it can ponder what it needs to do to welcome moshiach (although doing so on an individual level is necessary)
if these "rabonim" are the gedolim that moshe Y says they are they should be putting their time and effort into leading klal yisroel to tsuvah, mitzos and maasim tovim.
the sanedrin may not just be putting the horse in front of the cart. it may be allowing the cart to run over the horse behind it. that would happen because we put the cart first and forgot we need a horse.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:

But you then said,
"The only reason I have seen in print for a Sanhedrin is to change our calender so that Pesach will not come out in the Spring. This will occur in the year 6000 so it is not exactly an urgent call."
I've never heard this one before. What's the reasoning behind such a change?

One of the requirements of the jewish calender it that pesach must come out two weeks after the first new moon of spring. The first day of spring is Mar. 21. The jewish calender has a desrepancy of one day every century so by the year 6000, peseach will come out two news moons (sivan) after the first day of spring.
When the Natziv first brought this up about a hundred and fifty years ago, he asked a number of rabbanim. They said not to worry about it as the messiah comes in the year 6000. However, those people who aren't ready to accept the messiah will come as an halachic argument say it will take a Sanhedrin to change our calender. Interestingly, the Jewish Encylclopedia says we shouldn't worry as even in the time of the mishneh, they would postphone pesach a month if there was still clearly winter.

Aryeh Shore

MK Fink;
I would have thought that the fact that we don't have our act together is a pretext for Moshiach. I thought that part of his role is to fix what we've screwed up. If we can get everything fixed before his appearance he will become redundant.

Aryeh;
Interesting. Thanks. I had never heard such a halachic issue.

There's a wonderful poem to read that is titled "Moshiach's Hat" http://www.haruth.com/JSMoshiachsHat.html which I think is apprpriate here, since we're discussing differences in Judaism.

Quote from Moshe Y.

"Of that 20% how many do you think would prefer the Chareidi hashkafa?"



I would think at least half, if not more. Of course I don’t have cold polls in front of me, but that would be my guess.

Quote "Should that be embraced by all of Klal Yisrael?"

I didn’t say that everyone must turn Chareidi. I definitely feel that the Chareidim shouldn’t become MO. This is why I feel it should be different Rabanim and not all one centralized BD. This way, those that are not in the Chareidi camp can go after their way, while the Chareidim don’t have to compromise their principles.

Quote "My understanding is that Sages and Gedolim of ages past went to great lengths to see if a new mishpat would be accepted by Am Yisrael. If it wasn't accepted they would scrap it. "

My understanding is that they were always had a healthy wariness and were very cautious of anything new. All new revolutions, even the Mussar movement, which would be the less controversial of all the new movements, was met with opposition from the Gedolim.

Quote "Do you really feel that the Chareidi hashkafa would be the preference of Klal Yisrael."

When is the Haskafa of Klal Yiosrael up for a democratic vote? I don’t want to go into the basic tenants that are involved with the question. I also can understand that people are individuals, and don’t fit into one mold, so there is a place for those without my Hashkafa living within Halacha in Orthodoxy. The question is what would be more beneficial for someone who has a choice to live either one and is only interested on what would make him a better servant of Hashem, that’s a different discussion, which has to do with religion, which I won’t discuss, since religion is a touchy subject. Therefore, I feel we shouldn’t try to centralize like either view.

Quote "did you say that a Beit Din HaGadol is not needed? I thought the Chareidim too were waiting for the Moshiach."

That’s the key word, "waiting." Yes, when Moshiach comes, there would be a need for a Bd Hagadol (where I’m sure that the Moshiach will pick the people with the best ability and Yiras Shamayim) but until then, there is no need to it. It will only cause the problems I wrote in the 1st post.

Quote "Israel cannot become a Jewish state without a Beit Din HaGadol. Currently it is a Bolshevic state run by Jews....but it's not a Jewish state, yet."

I cannot believe that this BD would have any affect on the political scope of Israel. It won’t kick out the secular.

Quote from LS

"1. It looks to me and at lot of other people, that the Cheredi poskim are dictating the public agenda in kashrut and other matters and it looks like this will continue for the near future."

Why do you think it’s like that? Where do you think their power is coming from?

Quote "2. I don't think you can pin this Sanhedrin idea on the MO. I have never heard of any posek or read in any of our journals someone suggesting that we form a Sanhedrin so can build the temple or bring the messiah. These people seem out of any mainstream designation (maybe they are messianics). "

That’s why I brought a proof that the main issues were time of death and helping Agunas (which means more than what is available from current Halachos.) These are not messianic issues, these are MO issues. The Techailus issue, even though it could be messianic, but it’s also a MO issue, since they are the ones that are wearing it.

Also religious Zionism, which is associated with MO, is somewhat based on messianic principles.( AS I understand Rav Kook’s Shita on it)

Quote "3. Again, the difference between MO and Cheredi is less halacha than cultural. "

I think it all comes from the philosophy (Hashkafa) that creates the culture and the leaning of Halacha. (I feel this true to most groups in Orthodox Judaism.) Don’t you believe that there are a few Halacha P’sakim that are only accepted among the MO? (for example, Heter Michira by Shvius.)

Quote "We seemed to have developed a new culture which is dominated by the idea of Daas Torah. The idea of Daas Torah is thought to be a non-chassidic response the the dominance of chassidim by their Rebbes."

I disagree. It’s basically that you trust the experts in the field than letting every Tom, Dick and Harry start making up their own P’sakim based on their limited knowledge. I heard from a son of a great Rabbi that his father was at an Agudah convention and someone came over to rav Moshe feinstein and showed him a certain Pri Migadim that he felt was contrary to his T’shuva, which Rav Moshe argued that it wasn’t. Afterwards he remarked to Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky, that how much Chutzpah this American Yungerman has. He had seen this Pri Migadin 340 times. (Something to keep in mind before we argue with Daas Torah.

Rav Chaim;
Your thoughts make sense. In a nutshell can I conclude that you are not opposed to the idea of a Beit Din HaGadol at all. You are just opposed to anyone imposing his own political agenda, except the Moshiach. In fact, if I understand you correctly, the only political agenda you will accept is that of Moshiach....even if he turns out to be MO, Breslover, Lubavitcher or brand of "orthodoxy" that departs from Chareidi? Or, if he is not Chareidi you won't accept him?
About hashkafa being accepted; I wasn't suggesting that there be a vote, but it is within our tradition not to put out halacha that Klal Yisrael will just ignore. So to some extent there is a democratic quality to the introduction of new halachot.

Note: Rav Chaim; do you think when the Beit Din HaGadol, for which you are waiting, eventually gets established, it will resemble the assembly of the Tanaim or it will be a completely different institution (in structure and purpose)?

Quote "In a nutshell can I conclude that you are not opposed to the idea of a Beit Din HaGadol at all. You are just opposed to anyone imposing his own political agenda, except the Moshiach. "

About the Halacha ramifications, I can’t give an opinion one way or another, since it’s what we call an off topic (one that’s not discussed in Shulchon Orech, and not really too practical for oyur daily day to day.) A lot of it has to do with lengthy T’shuvos from the days of the Bais Yosef, which I never went through.

Quote "About hashkafa being accepted; I wasn't suggesting that there be a vote, but it is within our tradition not to put out halacha that Klal Yisrael will just ignore."

There is the concept that "Mutav Shetahe Shogigim V’Al T’he Mizaidim" (that it’s better for them to be ignorant than to do things on purpose.) That is only 1) you know for sure they wouldn’t keep it and 2) Only tot hose you know for sure want keep it, and not to everyone.

There is a balance between pushing too much and not pushing enough. There is no use to keep everyone on the lowest possible step. You need to give people room to grow and they would eventually listen, which is eventually, to their benefit. On one hand, you can’t climb two rungs at a time, since it might be counterproductive. But it’s important to know that there are higher ideals then where you are now. In Vayerah, Lot’s daughters thought they were the last left in the world. It’s obvious that Lot tried to make them think that they were the best in the world, thus they came to this conclusion. He didn’t tell them about their Uncle Avraham that was the real tzadik, or else they would conclude that he and others also survived. It was because of this shortsightedness did their mistake came out.

So I think it’s reasonable to have both. A place where people who are not up to and won’t listen to the higher ideals (but it shouldn't be either your the biggest Tzadik or join the reform movement) and to have a place for them or their children to grow if they would climb it up.

1. Well we actually do have data since a recent survey was just done. The majority of religious jewry in the US is modern orthodox. However, since most of the children are now learning in schools associated with Cheredi community, it would be expected in the near future that the majority of religious jews in the US will be associated with the Cheredi community.
2. As for setting the trend for kashrut, this is just a matter of my kashrut is better than your kashrut to get a edge on the competition. It is a sort of game theory where one raises the ante till the other side can't met it. I mean does anyone really think there is an halachic logic for forbidding peanut oil on pesach? (Since wheat oil is basically permitted, how can one be more machmer on a minhag than on the actual issur?)
3. It is correct that Religious Zionism has a messianic basis and this had led to a major crisis. Many of the Religious Zionist leaders have pointed out that continuing in the present trend will result in total destruction of the movement.
4. What I mean by Daas Torah is a political idea developed within Agudah Yisrael since the 1900s that when the gedolim get together they have something like divine inspritation and their decisions are not subject to the old fashioned legal back and forth of shaalot and teshuvot.

5. As to why the Cheredization of modern orthodox is taking place in Israel we have some idea, after the pullout from Yamit, a group of religious zionists felt that it couldn't have happened if it wasn't for our sins. They then became more "strict" creating a new acronym, Chardalim, Cheredi leumi. As for the States, R. Chaim Solovechik suggests that after the holocaust we sort of felt disconnected from HaShem. I mean how many regular jews talk to HaShem like Tevya the Milkman. The desire to feel his presence was fulfilled through feeling the yoke of mitzvot more intensively.

6. As for what MO should do about all this, it has been suggested that the intellectual approach has run its course. We have to get new age. If it takes a Carlbach evening to bring them in, lets do it.

Aryeh Shore

Rav Chaim;
Thanks again. Are you just assuming Moshiach would be Chareidi? But you did not really answer whether an MO Moshiach would be acceptable. Having said that, the designations Chareidi, Charieid Leumi, MO, Dati Leumi etc are subject to discussion in themselves. Forced to categorize myself, I call myslef modern orthodox, but in Israel I'm Dati Leumi. however, I know women who keep kashrut and go to Mikveh in Israel who call themselves "secular". So I may have a good idea what Chareidi hashkafa is but someone who calls himself Chareidi would consider that understanding "nuts" and vice versa. For this reason, I feel that the participation of Chareidi Gedolim on the Beit Din HaGadol is a good thing if not crucial.

Aryeh;
That's quite a treatise you have there. I agree that Yiddishkeit, in general, has gotten more machmir since the Shoa. I think Charedi Leumi is the aspiration of most Americans who are shomer mitzvot. MO is a concession to the circumstances here because once one leaves New York or some other Jewish ghetto it is difficult to be Chareidi without looking strange enough to be taken in by the police. The entire MO movement is a compromise. I've been asking questions to Rav Chaim about the political agenda of the Beit Din HaGadol because I'm not convinced the characters involved in it are after creating an MO court. Indeed, they are looking for people who feel they are more qualified regardless of their leaning or persuasion. If all the Chareidi gedolim of the world ascended onto Israel to join the Beit Din HaGadol, they would be most welcome. It would become a Chareidi court.