Aryeh;
Daas Torah has worked for us out of necessity the past 1600 years. Can it be made to work within the context of Beit Din HaGadol or the two are mutually exclusive?
Can you please expound a little on the Daas Torah concept, in view of the Beit Din HaGadol?
Toda!

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Rav Chaim;
Thanks again. Are you just assuming Moshiach would be Chareidi?

http://www.haruth.com/JSMoshiachsHat.html

Moshiach's Hat

(A Poem To Ponder)
By Anonymous ben Kolonymous (who else?)

'T was the night of the Geulah, -- And in every single Shtiebel
Sounds of Torah could be heard -- Coming from every kind of Yeedel.
This one in English, -- Some in Hebrew, some in Yiddish.
Some saying P'shat -- And some saying a Chiddish.
And up in Shamayim--The Aibishter decreed:
"The time has come -- For My children to be freed.
"Rouse the Moshiach -- From his heavenly berth.
Have him get in his chariot, -- And head down to earth.
"The Moshiach got dressed -- And with a heart full of glee,
Went down to earth and entered -- the first Shtiebel he did see.
"I am the Moshiach! -- Hashem has heard your plea!
Your Geulah has come! -- It's time to go free!
"They all stopped their learning; -- This was quite a surprise.
And they look at him carefully, -- With piercing sharp eyes
"He's not the Moshiach!" -- Said one with a grin,
"Just look at his hat, -- At the pinches and brim!"
"That's right!" cried another -- With a grimace and frown,
"Whoever heard of Moshiach, -- With a brim that's turned down?"
"Well," thought Moshiach, -- "If this is the rule,
I'll turn my brim up -- Before I go to the next shul."
So he walked right on over -- To the next shul in town.
Sure to be accepted, -- Since his brim was no longer down.
"I'm, the Moshiach!" he cried, -- As he began to enter
But the Jews wanted to know first -- If he was Left Right or Center
"Your clothes are so black!" -- They cried out in fright.
"You can't be Moshiach--You're much too far right!"
"If you want to be Moshiach, -- You must be properly outfitted.
"So they replaced his black hat -- With a Kippah that was knitted.
Wearing his new Kippah, -- Moshiach went out and said:
"No difference to me -- What I wear on my head.
"So he went to the next shul, -- For his mission was dear.
But he was getting frustrated -- With the Yidden down hear.
"I'm the Moshiach!" he cried, -- And they all stopped to stare,
And a complete eerie stillness -- Filled up the air.
"You're the Moshiach?! -- Just imagine that!
Whoever heard of Moshiach -- Without a black hat?"
"But I do have a hat!" -- The Moshiach then said.
So he pulled it right out -- And plunked it down on his head.
Then the shul started laughing, -- And one said " Where's your kop?
You can't have Moshiach -- With a brim that's turned up!
If you want to be Moshiach -- And be accepted in this town,
"Put some pinches in your hat -- And turn that brim down!"
Moshiach walked out and said: -- "I guess my time hasn't come.
I'll just return -- To where I came from.
"So he went to his chariot, -- But as he began to enter,
All sorts of Jews appeared -- From the Left, Right, and Center.
"Please wait - do not leave. -- It's all their fault!" they said,
And they pointed to each other -- And to what was on each other's head.
Moshiach just looked sad -- And said, " You don't understand."
And then started up his chariot -- To get out of this land.
"Yes, it's very wonderful -- That you all learn Torah,
But you seem to have forgotten -- A crucial part of our Mesorah.
"What does he mean?" -- "What's he talking about?"
And they all looked bewildered, -- And they all began to shout.
Moshiach looked back and answered, -- "The first place to start,
Is to shut up your mouths -- And open your hearts.
"To each of you, certain Yidden -- Seem too Frum or too Frei,
But all Yidden are beloved -- in the Aibishter's eye."
And on his way up he shouted: -- " If you want me to come,
Try working a little harder -- On some Ahavat Chinam!"

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Aryeh;
Daas Torah has worked for us out of necessity the past 1600 years. Can it be made to work within the context of Beit Din HaGadol or the two are mutually exclusive?
Can you please expound a little on the Daas Torah concept, in view of the Beit Din HaGadol?
Toda!

Dear Moshe,
No. What is known as daas torah in the shutim (rarely used) is not what daas torah is today. This is new concept that the gedolim somehow have a direct line to HaShem and should be respected and listened to not because of their legal arguments but because they are gedolim. It is an echo of the rule Chasidic rabbis have over their Chassidim. The Rebbe doesn't have to explain himself. Find me a Posek from the 11th to 20th century who gives advice on whom to marry and what business to go into.
If we restablish a Sanhedrin, nobody suggests they have mystical pathways to HaShem. I think that is the point of the bat kol story we love to quote. Although you will find a occaisional posek who has a dream telling him was wrong or right, it is not overwhelming way of poskining and the Rosh for one has a dim view of people who want to poskin from a dream or because the posek died suddenly.
The advantage of real simicha would be that the bet din could make monetary judgements without the consent of the parties. This would help a lot deciding cases of theft and fraud. I don't think anyone is interested in giving makot but this is a matter of mind set.

Aryeh Shore



Aryeh Shore

Quote ". Are you just assuming Moshiach would be Chareidi? But you did not really answer whether an MO Moshiach would be acceptable."

I said that this would constitute religion which is a touchy subject, that I rather not get involved with.

Quote "MO is a concession to the circumstances here because once one leaves New York or some other Jewish ghetto it is difficult to be Chareidi without looking strange enough to be taken in by the police."

I guess Raybin was right when she wrote ". A few years ago I dressed modestly and covered my head, but I used to get stopped by the police alot and taken in to mental hospitals." J

Quote "If all the Chareidi gedolim of the world ascended onto Israel to join the Beit Din HaGadol, they would be most welcome. It would become a Chareidi court."

Would this be acceptable to the MO? What would happen if they impose a 6 foot Mechitzah for all Shuls? That’s why we should leave good enough alone.

Qoute "2. As for setting the trend for kashrut, this is just a matter of my kashrut is better than your kashrut to get a edge on the competition. It is a sort of game theory where one raises the ante till the other side can't met it."

I don’t think that it’s sort of a game, but rather real service that the consumers demand. If someone comes up with certain Kulos that are not accepted by others, of course their Hashgacha are not going to be accepted. Over here in America, there are some in the business that are not acceptable by others in the business, but some of the "good" Hechshers are run by MO, it all depends on the standard.

Quote ". I mean does anyone really think there is an halachic logic for forbidding peanut oil on pesach? (Since wheat oil is basically permitted, how can one be more machmer on a minhag than on the actual issur?)"

It’s the same for corn Matzos, since there is no separation between Chumaitz and Matzah, so they prohibited completely. Whichever way, oil from kitnious is definitely prohibited as the Rama says in 453:1.

Quote "4. What I mean by Daas Torah is a political idea developed within Agudah Yisrael since the 1900s that when the gedolim get together they have something like divine inspritation and their decisions are not subject to the old fashioned legal back and forth of shaalot and teshuvot."

I don’t think their claim is that they get divine inspiration, but rather you have a think tank of the best in the business. In the S&T, there wasn’t any nobodies challenging the Gedolim’s T’shuvos, rather Gedolim who challenged each other’s T’Shuvos (like the back and forth between Rav A. Eiger, Rav Y. From Lisa and the Beis Meir) Now they can meet together, so what is the difference

Quote "What is known as daas torah in the shutim (rarely used) is not what daas torah is today. This is new concept that the gedolim somehow have a direct line to HaShem and should be respected and listened to not because of their legal arguments but because they are gedolim."

What do you think made them gedolim, they won it in a lottery? They earned it as being recognized by the other Talmidei chachamim in the generation that they are superior in their Torah Knowledge and their legal argument. Why is this different then any other field where the opinion of the one that is considered the biggest expert in the field is accepted? When you say that the Shach or Taz says something, without even hearing the argument, (like if it’s written in a Lekut Sefer,) the very fact that they said it carries tremendous weight. By the fact that we recognize someone as an expert in the Torah, his words carry weight because we know that the whole Shas and Poskim were weighed when he said it.





Quote "It is an echo of the rule Chasidic rabbis have over their Chassidim. The Rebbe doesn't have to explain himself. Find me a Posek from the 11th to 20th century who gives advice on whom to marry and what business to go into."

You don’t think they gave advice, worked on Sholom Bayis problems etc. We don’t have them recorded, that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You don’t have today’s advice about marriage recorded. I at least know one person (a relative) who didn’t marry someone because a Gadol told him not to. When he got married, his wife knew this 1st girl and was astounded that he would marry such a dumb person. Why shouldn’t you get advice in life from the greatest minds of the generation? Who should you get advice whom to marry? From your roommate? That will do you real good. Doesn't it just make sense to get advice from people who are involved in Sholom Bayis issues and know what to look for?

Quote "I think that is the point of the bat kol story we love to quote."

Don’t we Paskin like the Bas Kol that the Halacha is like Bais Hillel?

Quote "Although you will find a occaisional posek who has a dream telling him was wrong or right, it is not overwhelming way of poskining and the Rosh for one has a dim view of people who want to poskin from a dream or because the posek died suddenly."

What will he do with the Gemarah in Shabbos 134b that Rava said he got a certain sickness on the account that he argued on Rav Yehudah?

peanut oil
R. Feinstein on peanut oil
Concerning peanuts, which were called stashkes in Europe—they have been accepted as being permitted on Pesach and are not considered kitniyos (legumes that are forbidden on Pesach) because all the reasons for the prohibition of kitniyos do not apply to peanuts. Peanuts are not sown in fields (with grain), and even if they were there is no fear that grain would be mixed together with the peanuts; bread is not baked from peanuts; and generally speaking though they are vegetables they have the appearance of nuts rather than kitniyos. And even though I have heard that in some places they were considered kitniyos, peanuts should not be forbidden in places where it is not known for certain what the custom had been in their city, because, with reference to kitniyos, when in doubt one should be lenient.

Therefore you may give certification for peanuts and the oil derived from them, and they will be permissible to the majority of persons. Those who know for certain that the custom of their city was not to eat peanuts on Passover should not eat them; others are permitted to eat them.”

Now not using wheat oil, which is clearly permitted in the gemara, is a chumra (we forgot how to make it correctly). Kitniyot is a minhag. Kitnyot oil would be a chumra on a minhag more than the ikar (the essence). Peanuts are not kitnyot (they are legumes but that is a scientific classification). It would be a chumra to consider them as such. Saying peanut oil is chumetz would be putting a chruma on chumra on a chruma on a minhag. That the OU collapsed on this one is due to competition not halacha.
I would say this is the epitome of anti-halachic logic but this year they have start to outlaw cottonseed and flaxseed oil in Israel. They can't acutally say it since the Minchas Yitchak (who was the Rav of the Edat Charedit)said there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with it (in his second pesak) so they just took off the hasghacha. I understand those degenerate americans are still giving hasgachah on cottonseed and flaxseed, and bite your tongue, sunflower oil.
2. Er. That was my point. Litaim Rabbis today are expected to be Rebbes and give advice. (or as R. Solovechik said, today ever Rav has to be a bit of Rebbe). Now Rosh Yeshivot have been giving advice and taking responsibility for shiduchim for their students for at least two centuries and probably long before that. However, the general community didn't come to them for advice as their local Ann Landers.

3. It is human nature to think that purists are somehow more right than them, either on the left or right. However, the Cheredim are not right. The MO position is that the halacha is determined by the situation, not to agree with the most difficult position no matter how illogical. This was one of the points in the survey I mentioned. The others would be the importance of secular knowledge and the centrality of the State of Israel. Since in the US, the Cheredim have now moved into the marketplace and most Cheredi schools send their graduating class to Israel, the differences in the US among orthodox jews would be hard to explain to an outsider. On the other hand, in Israel, a new group has been created which does not participate in the workplace (and wants the electorate to thank them for it) and has closed itself off to any outside information.
Finally as a western democrat, I find censorship and closing off of information strongly resembling totalitarian regimes which I don't like (first the burn the books, then the jews). This is of course a prejudice which I have no intention of giving up.

Aryeh Shore


Do you really think that we need hasgacha on water?

Rav Chaim;
Quote ". Are you just assuming Moshiach would be Chareidi? But you did not really answer whether an MO Moshiach would be acceptable."

I said that this would constitute religion which is a touchy subject, that I rather not get involved with.

Quote "MO is a concession to the circumstances here because once one leaves New York or some other Jewish ghetto it is difficult to be Chareidi without looking strange enough to be taken in by the police."

I guess Raybin was right when she wrote ". A few years ago I dressed modestly and covered my head, but I used to get stopped by the police alot and taken in to mental hospitals." J

Quote "If all the Chareidi gedolim of the world ascended onto Israel to join the Beit Din HaGadol, they would be most welcome. It would become a Chareidi court."

Would this be acceptable to the MO? What would happen if they impose a 6 foot Mechitzah for all Shuls? That’s why we should leave good enough alone.
______________________________________

1. Your response to my question is a dodge. You can't have it both ways. You can't say whatever you want when it suits you, but when I call you on it, you say "it's religion...too touchy subject." It's all religion. That's a dodge.

2. There is a difference between a woman covering her knees, elbows, head (if married) and a man wearing his tzitzit outside with peyot dangling off the sides of his head in a "Blues Brothers" suit everyday. That's why I asked her to specify and elaborate on her situation. I was earnest when I asked her to elaborate. I'm sure if she had elaborated we would have all understood what she meant. Yes, Raybin could very well have been right.

3. You ask if this would be acceptable to the MO? You didn't answer my question. I'm trying to show you that the "creators" of the Beit Din HaGadol are interested in a Beit Din HaGadol and not some goofy agenda. Certainly if the court ends up dominated by the Chareidi, so be it. They are looking for the best Gedolim of our generation....Chareidi or not. By boycotting the Beit Din HaGadol, the Chareidi Gedolim guarantee that the court is dominated by MO.

To L. Shore,

Quote "Now not using wheat oil, which is clearly permitted in the gemara, is a chumra (we forgot how to make it correctly). Kitniyot is a minhag. Kitnyot oil would be a chumra on a minhag more than the ikar (the essence). "

Oil, from the Din of the germarah, could be not Chametz but also could be Chametz. It’s only non Chametz if done in a specific way, if not it’s Chumeitz. So i don’t see the logic to call it just a Chumrah on a Chumra, since there is Chumeitz oil. With your logic, you would do away with the whole Halacha with Kitniyos. From the Gemarah you can roast wheat and even cook them (in boiling water) See Pesachim 39b-40a. So obviously, even if it was possible to have the form in a Heter form from the Din of the Gemarah, still they were Goizer for Kitniyos. So oil has a Din Kitniyos as I already quoted the Rama as saying specifically. (Do you feel you can argue on the Rama also if you subjectively object to his Chumros?) That’s why to me the question of it being oil is a moot point. Anything that is Kitniyos, it’s oil is also Kitniyos, and that’s Pushut without any doubt. (Even though the Mahrsham permits oil made before Yom Tov and the Rama is referring to those that are made on yom Tov, but the vast majority of Poskim prohibit it completely)

Quote "Saying peanut oil is chumetz would be putting a chruma on chumra on a chruma on a minhag"

Now, even though Rav Moshe permitted it, there are those that bring the Minhag in most places to be Makpid on it, as Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank and the Melamed L’Hoyil (see Piskei T’Shuva 453:4 footnotes 21 and 22. So there are ample widespread Minhag that peanuts are kitniyos, and that’s pretty most the Minhag of people I know.

Quote "Now Rosh Yeshivot have been giving advice and taking responsibility for shiduchim for their students for at least two centuries and probably long before that. However, the general community didn't come to them for advice as their local Ann Landers"

So now you agree at least that they should give advice to their students, but the general Orthodox community, you argue, should not get advice from Roshei yeshivos, they should get it from Ann Landers instead. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want the masses to get their advice from roshei yeshivos rather than ann landers.

Quote "3. It is human nature to think that purists are somehow more right than them, either on the left or right. However, the Cheredim are not right. The MO position is that the halacha is determined by the situation, not to agree with the most difficult position no matter how illogical. "

On the contrary, their critiques would argue that there position is to take the most lenient position, no matter how illogical it is. Then afterwards, stretch the logic to make it more lenient, though the comparison does not really fit.

Like the one that wanted to permit a Kidushei Ketana (a father that was Mikadeish his under aged daughter) because the Torah only allowed one to Mikadesh his daughter for her benefit, so if he didn’t have her benefit in mind, then the Kidushin doesn’t work. This, of course, goes against the Gemarah that says that they gave the money earned by the under aged daughter to the father, to keep the relationship good, so that the father doesn’t marry her off to a disgusting person or someone covered with boils (which was not meant for her good.)

Not to forget the "Bes Din" that annuls all marriages on the account that they’re all "mekach Ta’aos" (a mistake) since the wife would never had married him if she knew that it wouldn’t work out.

I don’t need people who callously send married woman "to the market place" (to get married to another man) and create Mamzerim to established what is Halachic norm so that those that are more Machmer are "fundamentalist."

I remember about a year or two ago, someone gave one of my collegues a T’shuva for being able to reap the organs for transplant. We were in the Sugya of where the proof was from. It was so outlandish the comparison, we were astounded how can someone permit killing someone with such a weak argument.

I’m not saying that this is representative of all MO, but whatever you want to stereotype all Chareidim, the stereotype of MO is a lot worse.

Quote "Finally as a western democrat, I find censorship and closing off of information strongly resembling totalitarian regimes which I don't like (first the burn the books, then the jews). This is of course a prejudice which I have no intention of giving up."

So you would rather every Tom Dick and harry, in between watching their television, argue on Poskim, for some ridicules reason or another, and we can all make our own decision, and it’s our G-d given freedom that we all must be right, whether what we say makes sense or not. To L. Shore,

Quote "Now not using wheat oil, which is clearly permitted in the gemara, is a chumra (we forgot how to make it correctly). Kitniyot is a minhag. Kitnyot oil would be a chumra on a minhag more than the ikar (the essence). "

Oil, from the Din of the germarah, could be not Chametz but also could be Chametz. It’s only non Chametz if done in a specific way, if not it’s Chumeitz. So i don’t see the logic to call it just a Chumrah on a Chumra, since there is Chumeitz oil. With your logic, you would do away with the whole Halacha with Kitniyos. From the Gemarah you can roast wheat and even cook them (in boiling water) See Pesachim 39b-40a. So obviously, even if it was possible to have the form in a Heter form from the Din of the Gemarah, still they were Goizer for Kitniyos. So oil has a Din Kitniyos as I already quoted the Rama as saying specifically. (Do you feel you can argue on the Rama also if you subjectively object to his Chumros?) That’s why to me the question of it being oil is a moot point. Anything that is Kitniyos, it’s oil is also Kitniyos, and that’s Pushut without any doubt. (Even though the Mahrsham permits oil made before Yom Tov and the Rama is referring to those that are made on yom Tov, but the vast majority of Poskim prohibit it completely)

Quote "Saying peanut oil is chumetz would be putting a chruma on chumra on a chruma on a minhag"

Now, even though Rav Moshe permitted it, there are those that bring the Minhag in most places to be Makpid on it, as Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank and the Melamed L’Hoyil (see Piskei T’Shuva 453:4 footnotes 21 and 22. So there are ample widespread Minhag that peanuts are kitniyos, and that’s pretty most the Minhag of people I know.

Quote "Now Rosh Yeshivot have been giving advice and taking responsibility for shiduchim for their students for at least two centuries and probably long before that. However, the general community didn't come to them for advice as their local Ann Landers"

So now you agree at least that they should give advice to their students, but the general Orthodox community, you argue, should not get advice from Roshei yeshivos, they should get it from Ann Landers instead. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want the masses to get their advice from roshei yeshivos rather than ann landers.

Quote "3. It is human nature to think that purists are somehow more right than them, either on the left or right. However, the Cheredim are not right. The MO position is that the halacha is determined by the situation, not to agree with the most difficult position no matter how illogical. "

On the contrary, their critiques would argue that there position is to take the most lenient position, no matter how illogical it is. Then afterwards, stretch the logic to make it more lenient, though the comparison does not really fit.

Like the one that wanted to permit a Kidushei Ketana (a father that was Mikadeish his under aged daughter) because the Torah only allowed one to Mikadesh his daughter for her benefit, so if he didn’t have her benefit in mind, then the Kidushin doesn’t work. This, of course, goes against the Gemarah that says that they gave the money earned by the under aged daughter to the father, to keep the relationship good, so that the father doesn’t marry her off to a disgusting person or someone covered with boils (which was not meant for her good.)

Not to forget the "Bes Din" that annuls all marriages on the account that they’re all "mekach Ta’aos" (a mistake) since the wife would never had married him if she knew that it wouldn’t work out.

I don’t need people who callously send married woman "to the market place" (to get married to another man) and create Mamzerim to established what is Halachic norm so that those that are more Machmer are "fundamentalist."

I remember about a year or two ago, someone gave one of my collegues a T’shuva for being able to reap the organs for transplant. We were in the Sugya of where the proof was from. It was so outlandish the comparison, we were astounded how can someone permit killing someone with such a weak argument.

I’m not saying that this is representative of all MO, but whatever you want to stereotype all Chareidim, the stereotype of MO is a lot worse.

Quote "Finally as a western democrat, I find censorship and closing off of information strongly resembling totalitarian regimes which I don't like (first the burn the books, then the jews). This is of course a prejudice which I have no intention of giving up."

So you would rather every Tom Dick and harry, in between watching their television, argue on Poskim, for some ridicules reason or another, and we can all make our own decision, and it’s our G-d given freedom that we all must be right, whether what we say makes sense or not.

To Moshe Y,

Quote "1. Your response to my question is a dodge. You can't have it both ways. You can't say whatever you want when it suits you, but when I call you on it, you say "it's religion...too touchy subject." It's all religion. That's a dodge."

I don’t think it’s a dodge, what did I say that I’m having both ways?

I can answer it though. Through your definition of MO as ". The entire MO movement is a compromise." I don’t think Mashiach is here to compromise. I think he’s here to show us the proper way in Yidishkeit.

Quote "2. There is a difference between a woman covering her knees, elbows, head and a man wearing tzitzit with peyot dangling off the sides of his head. That's why I asked her to specify and elaborate on her situation. I was earnest when I asked her elaborate. I'm sure if she had elaborated we would have all understood what she meant. Yes, Raybin could very well have been right."

Actually, I said that one as a joke, not of anything to have any meaning to the discussion, just to link that humorous post to the situation. That’s why I put a after it. It was something I thought was funny at the time, was not meant for you to take it seriously.

Also, you were quite strong with her, as I quote "Raybin,
I couldn't stop laughing when I read your story. It's just too bizzare to be part of our known world. There's got to be something else to this story you are not telling us. What kind of modest clothes are you wearing? What are you doing when you wear them? If you are standing by the street corner and start to harrass passersby or something, then of course, even I might send you somewhere. Nowhere in the US are people sent to mental hospitals, where such hospitals still exist. Patients characteristically undergo a barrage of tests and medications etc before they are even considered for institutionalization. You are not telling us the whole story."

Actually, I was in places that there are few jews and I was never stopped once.

Quote "Certainly if the court ends up dominated by the Chareidi, so be it. They are looking for the best Gedolim of our generation....Chareidi or not."

There is the rub. Even in the event that the Chareidim will join (in which they know there isn’t a chance) it’s very subjective who is the best in the generation. I don’t think they ever would leave the power to the Chareidim. They’ll just say that their Gedolim are as qualified or more in order to keep the majority (I’m sure they’ll allow token Chareidim) and force the issues which they announced that they want to take care of, which is all MO issues.

Rav Chaim,
Okay, perhaps I was a tad strong with Raybin. I was hoping to elicit some response out of her. If I had been in her shoes I would have prepared a nice little schpeel for myself to show that this really happened and the circumstances etc. But I guess I pushed the wrong person. Sometimes it's hard to predict how people might react.

I probably agree with most of what you say but when I read your final paragraph I have difficulty believing that you really see things that way.
_______________________________________________
Quote "Certainly if the court ends up dominated by the Chareidi, so be it. They are looking for the best Gedolim of our generation....Chareidi or not."

There is the rub. Even in the event that the Chareidim will join (in which they know there isn’t a chance) it’s very subjective who is the best in the generation. I don’t think they ever would leave the power to the Chareidim. They’ll just say that their Gedolim are as qualified or more in order to keep the majority (I’m sure they’ll allow token Chareidim) and force the issues which they announced that they want to take care of, which is all MO issues.
________________________________________________

You don't have much faith in the characters on the new "Beit Din HaGadol" do you? You have a very dim view of them, is it really justified? What can they do to make you and other Chareidi Gedolim feel more confident. They have been making proclamations "with humility" and have specifically called for more qualified Gedolim to join them. That doesn't sound like a bunch ready to disqualify anyone. Unless you have some inside information, I'm not convinced about your conspiratorial stance on their motives. Wouldn't it be better to give Klal Yisrael a chance so they can prove themselves, instead of accusing them under assumptions that may turn out not to be true?

quote:

Actually, I was in places that there are few jews and I was never stopped once.

In my locality the nature of the place seems to have changed as a result of post-9/11/01 events, and anyone who shows visible signs of belonging to a minority religion seem to be presumed to be fanatical murderers.

Perhaps if one is very adept with people skills, or endowed with significant charisma, they could get through such tightening of tolerance without issue, or if the nature of their interactions came from a solidly understood foundatation.

For me, I have wondered if Yoseif HaTzadik who learned to thrive in Egypt might have an insight for this, unless I am reading too much into the morning tehillim: Psalm 81 - testimony for Yoseif in Egypt:

"I understood a language I never knew!"

If perhaps there was a social awkwardness in the way he spoke with his brothers early in life, but he mastered the language of people skills in being able to become valued by Pharoah...

That one who has this mastery would never be "stopped" or raise concerns or fears does not mean that regular yidden with our flaws and foibles can be well tolerated in lilly-white America.

Dear Moshe,

I don’t know any of the people’s personally, I was just going on their self-proclaimed agenda. As I quoted from the Aretz Sheva article.

"Among the many topics the Sanhedrin intends to address are the bridging of the divisions between various communities of Jewish exiles who have returned to Israel; the establishment of authentic techelet, the biblical blue thread Jews are commanded to wear amongst the fringes attached to four-cornered garments; the definition of the measurement of the "ammah" (the biblical cubit); the determination of the exact point of human death, so as to deal with the Jewish ethics of euthanasia; and the issue of agunot - women whose husbands refuse to grant them a divorce."

This is all I’m going on and to me it raises red flags.

(P.S. actually I agreed with you original reaction, since the case did seem strange (that’s why I saved the whole thing on my computer and that’s how I had the quotes to quote) and somewhat humorous. I took your statement about being stopped by the police as an exaggeration, but saying that you stick out like a sore thumb, whether among non-Jews or Jews, even the Orthodox.)

Rav Chaim,
I agree with you that the proposed agenda can raise red flags. But, if you look at issues listed, they are all issues that have vexed our generation. I look at it as an attempt to find solutions. However, this attempt doesn't seem to me to be an attempt to change things as much as it is an attempt to find out what the Gedolim would think and how they would rule if brought together as one body. I look at it as soliciting the participation of Gedolim with expertise in those areas and to elicit some sort of response out of them. The way I see it, everything in that list could be discussed, debated and poseked and still have no changes made to halacha as we know it. That in itself would be a good thing. It would reaffirm where we are holding halachically.