Go to Our New Site
Weekly Torah Updates

Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Torah Forums  Hop To Forums  Holidays in Judaism    Erev Pesach on Shabbos

Read-Only Read-Only Topic
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
-star Rating Rate It!  Login/Join 

Posted
When Erev Pesach falls on Shabbos there are complications. I heard an interesting question about how to properly eat seudas shlisis on this shabbos. Most poskim seem to agree that you should split the morning meal into two parts and finish both early enough to have challah at the meals. Of course this suggestion is difficult because most poskim also agree that you should not eat seudas shlishis before chatzos. But since this is a special case (you can't make hamotzi later) we eat earlier.
Now the question...
Since we are not eating seudas shlishis at the correct time anyway - why not eat two meals at night (you have much more time and you could spread them out over a number of hours. I heard in the name of Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank that he would find it too difficult to eat two meals on erev pesach morning because it would be hard to say birkas hamazon twice in such a short time period with proper kavana!)
The gemara (Shabbos 117b) says based on the word "ha-yom" repeated three times in Shemos 15:24 we need to eat three meals. Of course, in an ideal situation you should have one at night, one in the morning and one after mincha. But since that is not possible - why not eat 2 at night?
 
Posts: 41 | Location: Bet Shemesh, Israel | Registered: March 29, 2005Report This Post

Posted Hide Post
Smart thinking - You sound like a lawyer. However the third meal should reall be after after mincha time. The Rema recommends fish and meat (sounds like Atkins) or fruit
 
Posts: 32 | Location: Brooklyn | Registered: November 22, 2004Report This Post

Picture of laurence shore
Posted Hide Post
Now the reason that Rabbi Akiva and Rashi didn't worry about shabbat erev pesach is that they thought that stei lechem was two loaves of bread, one for the evening and one for the day. Actually the amoraim considered it being a glutton to eat more than one loaf of bread. It is a chassidic custom to eat two (actually some eat six) loaves of bread at each meal, which is how we got to our present predicament. (This is my supposition, happy to be corrected.)

Oh goodie, I get to give my pesach erev shabat vort again.

Now you may have heard that one can be yozeh the obligation of the third meal with divrei torah. You will not find this idea in the laws dealing with the third meal. It is in the magen avraham in the laws of peseach as one of the solutions to the shabat erev pesach condundrum. His source is the Shla. The Shla says in the gemara we can be yotzeh the third meal with targamenta (sugarred fruits) which sounds like targum which is divrei torah.

Aryeh Shore
 
Posts: 548 | Location: Rechovot, Israel | Registered: February 11, 2005Report This Post

Posted Hide Post
I heard once that Rav Chaim (or perhaps it was the Griz - one of the Briskers anyway) said regarding using talmud torah as shalosh seudos - if you say a pshat that is later proved false then you won't be yotzie! I am not sure if that was meant to be taken at face value. Does that mean that if you vomit after eating bread you aren't yotzie? does that mean that talmud torah only counts if you come out with a correct pshat? doesn't sound correct to me? since I never saw it written I would like to believe that the source is not the Grach or the Griz!

Anyway - look again at the gemara in pesachim 13. The halacha there in the case of erev pesach on shabbos is that you get rid of all your chametz before shabbos except enough for 2 meals. And Rashi says simly becasue you can't eat later! pashut pshat (at least the way I was reading it is that - you don't need 3 meals that shabbos - or at eat fruit/meat). If I remember correctly that is the conclusion of the Pnei Yehoshua - but, I don't have it in front of me.

But regarding shalodh seudos in general I was not aware of the shitas haBehag (mentioned by the Ran in Shabbos 118). He says that you can start your morning meal - stop & bentch and then wash right away - there is no order for the meals as we normally assume (night, morning & mincha time - i.e., after 12.5 hours of the day). So, it is possible to say in the Behag (although it is by no means clear this way) that you can have 2 meals at night. But the mechaber does not pasken like this Behag (and although he mentions the behag in the beis yosef - the behag does not get mentioned after that). So, maybe people are invoking this behag for erev pesach? but I guess it makes more sense to have fruit/veg or meat for the third meal.
 
Posts: 41 | Location: Bet Shemesh, Israel | Registered: March 29, 2005Report This Post

Picture of laurence shore
Posted Hide Post
The shita of the behag is quite popular in Israel. Our 6:30 minyan has its biggest crowd of the year. I think this year the 6:30 minyan will be at 5:30 and the 8:30 minyan will be at 7:00.
Once a Rav came to our 6:30 minyan for a bar mitzvah. He said that normally we assume that an open bottle of wine in the synagogue is kosher. However he felt he had to warn people that there was a whole group of mechalal shabat people in my shul as what could be worse than having a 6:30 minyah on Shabbat when one should be sleeping.

Aryeh Shore
 
Posts: 548 | Location: Rechovot, Israel | Registered: February 11, 2005Report This Post

Posted Hide Post
There are different approaches to the suadah shlishis erev pesach problem. However, what strikes me as being difficult is the following.

Generally, if one is faced with performing a mitzvah now or a mitzvah later he must perform the closest one at hand. The first mitzvah takes precedence. In this case, there is a mitzvah of 3 meals - a scriptual based mitzvah- that is to be perfrormed on Shabbos day well before the chiyuv of eating matzoh with a good appetite- of a rabbinic nature- that is to be performed at a later time - Motzei Shabbos.

Why is this night different than all other nights?
 
Posts: 32 | Location: Brooklyn | Registered: November 22, 2004Report This Post
Newbie

Posted Hide Post
Gilad, you asked if one is yozeh the seudah if one vomitted up the seudas Shabbos.I think I saqw in the Sefer, Mikroeu Kodesh (by Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank,The Har Tzvi)that one can't be yozeh kiddush bemokom seudah if he throws up, being that the posuk says vekoroso lashabbos oneg- bemokom oneg- seudah shom tehey oneg and its not exactly an enjoyable gastronomic experience to upchuck one's meal.It would seem from the Mikroe Kodesh that otherwise the vomitted meal would be valid for kiddush bemokom seudah -and the seudah itself.In the instant case,the Torah learning was enjoyable and did remain (unless you say that falsehood does not endure)(If the word Oneg Applies to shalos seudos as well -and it ought to,perhaps thts part of the reason that is part of the reason that one can be yozeh with Torah - Pekudei Hashem Yeshorim Mesamchei Lev ; Vehaarev Na - Maybe It's even intrinsic in this halacha being in hilchos Pesach which is a preparation for Kabolas Hatorah). Maybe you can compare learning wrong pshat to eino rouy laachila. In any case is the attempt of Torah learning Torah? Also, doesn't one quote Divrei Torah and then first expound on it-Isn't the original quote Divrei Torah?
If A Rav from the Brisk family didd say it literally, however, then I just have a question.
 
Posts: 4 | Location: New York | Registered: December 28, 2004Report This Post
 Previous Topic | Next Topic powered by eve community  

Read-Only Read-Only Topic

Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Torah Forums  Hop To Forums  Holidays in Judaism    Erev Pesach on Shabbos


Weekly Torah Updates
Enter your Email


Preview