shmini atzeret is not part of succot. And succot is not part of shmini atzeret.
(thoug they share similar qualities)

succot is 7 days in the diaspora and israel.

hoshana rabba is chol hamoed, is one day.
Succot is an exception in the shalosh regalim - 3 foot festivals pesach shavuot and succot. Succot is the only one that ends on a chol hamoed - melacha is allowed.

The misconception some have of succot ending on a yom tov arises because
- the succot machzor includes shmini atzeret adn simchat torah in it.
- Also, the written torah although it distinguishes , it refers to shmini atzeret as "the 8th day". This is acutally only 8th day of celebration. Not 8th day of succot. The mishna is clear that succot is 7 days.
- They think succot mirrors pesach like that
- Many sites talk about shmini atzeret being "the conclusion" of succot, or "at the conclusion of succot" or as "an independent festival". They don't have the guts to say it's not part of succot and succot is not part of it.

so, wrong to say that it's rabbinically or has a rabbinical extra day. (I added that sentence for the sake of searches! )

This is such a misconception. I hear it every year. And during the year, in my travels.

You seem very sure of yourself, David. I take it that before posting you researched the Rabbinical authorities, including in particular Orach Chaim Siman 668 and the various commentaries thereon. I'd welcome your comments on these.

editted

well, the reason for my sureness may be wrong. I asked many rabbis, got mixed answers. But one rabbi I asked was adamant that shmini atzeret is not succot and succot is not shmini atzeret. I then asked some of the other rabbis again, putting that position to them, and they said that was right.

Looking at websites, I see that some ambiguously say SA is the conclusion of succot. Others more clearly that it is AFTER the conclusion of succot. It looks a bit like we're not dealign with differences of opinion here but ambiguous vs unambiguous terminology.

The written torah says that succot is a 7 day period
Numbers 23:34 "...the festival of succot(Chag HaSukkot), a 7 day period for hashem"


I think i've just found a better answer. I was not entirely correct in my post.


SA=shmini atzeret. SK=sukkot/succot

SA is not SK and SK is not SA. But, SK is an extra day in the diaspora. Hoshana Rabba is extended a day.

So, the 2nd day of Hoshana Rabba is rabbinically the 8th day of succot, and coincidentally, that falls on the same day as shmini atzeret.

All Torah festivals. Non rabbinical ones. That's
Biblical ones. There are no oral ones that aren't in the written. All biblical ones are an extra day.
Or rather, the rabbis - I won't say - reserve the right to make it an extra day. But they make it an extra day unless there is a good reason. So, Yom Kippur isn't an extra day.
The biblical festivals are RH,YK,Pes,Shav,Succot,SA
(I think that's all of them, are there any others?)

rabbis i've asked recently, said that succot is the only one that ends on chol hamoed. showing (me) that a torah holy day even when melacha is allowed, is an extra day.

it did look in an old thread I read here, as if when melacha was forbidden, for that reason a festival was an extra day. But that's not the case. hoshana rabba example, and that's not an exception to any rule because there is no rule that says so. Interestingly, simchat torah, is rabbinical and melacha forbidden. It's not an extra day. Only the non rabbinical ones, which are the biblical ones, are an extra day.


It'd be itneresting to see a source for this, but apparently we sit in the succa not because shmini atzeret has succot like qualities. But because we're in doubt as to whether it's succot. We only sit in the succa in the diaspora, i guess that's the proof that succot is being extended an extra day.

Also, there isn't a 9th day - as one rabbi I asked once said! ;-) Funnily enough though, a machzor i was using called simchat torah 9th day. 9th day perhaps, just as the written torah calls shmini atzeret the 8th day. But not of succot!

quote:

Originally posted by davidt:
Looking at websites, I see that some ambiguously say SA is the conclusion of succot. Others more clearly that it is AFTER the conclusion of succot. It looks a bit like we're not dealign with differences of opinion here but ambiguous vs unambiguous terminology.

The Siman of Shulchan Aruch I quoted shows up this ambiguity. In our Shmini Atzeres prayers there are 2 ways that Shmini Atzeres is referred to:

1. Yom Shmini Atzeres HaChag Hazeh - The 8th day of Atzeres of this "Chag". Succos is called "Chag" and so according to this formulation Shmini Atzeres is part of Succos.

2. Yom Shmini Chag HaAzteres Hazeh - The 8th day, this Festival of Azteres. In this formulation Shmini Atzeres is treated as a separate Festival.

quote:

it did look in an old thread I read here, as if when melacha was forbidden, for that reason a festival was an extra day. But that's not the case. hoshana rabba example, and that's not an exception to any rule because there is no rule that says so. Interestingly, simchat torah, is rabbinical and melacha forbidden. It's not an extra day. Only the non rabbinical ones, which are the biblical ones, are an extra day.

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at here.

quote:

Also, there isn't a 9th day - as one rabbi I asked once said! ;-) Funnily enough though, a machzor i was using called simchat torah 9th day. 9th day perhaps, just as the written torah calls shmini atzeret the 8th day. But not of succot!

The "9th" day is actually the second day of Shmini Atzeres in the diaspora, which is why in our prayers (in every machzor) we still call it Shmini Atzeres. We would still have this extra day even without Simchas Torah.

In any event, one can say that Shmini Ateres is on its own as a festival. The Rabbis call it a "Yom Tov Bif'nei Atzmo", a Festival in and of itself. For example, in the laws of mourning, Shmini Ateres is in certain circumstances treated as a separate Festival for the purpose of cancelling some aspects of Aveilus [mourning] which (say) the last days of Pesach do not.

On the other hand, the Torah does indeed refer to Shmini Atzeres as "on the 8th day", implying that it is connected to Succos.

It is an interesting subject for debate that you have raised and in the final analysis the way one treats Shmini Atzeres will determine how you refer to it in the prayers.

There are ways they're connected and there are ways they're different. The Gemara itself points this out in many places. one place, RH 4b, it says as follows from the paraphrase of Kollel Iyun hadaf


1. Question: Why not compare Shavuos to Sukos and give it an eight-day period for Tashlumin?

2. Answer: The eighth day of Sukos is an independent festival.

3. Question: The eighth day's status as an independent festival was stated regarding P.Z.R.K.Sh.B. (Payis, Zman, Regel, Korban, Shir and Berachah); but regarding Tashlumin, it is part of Sukos, as stated in a Mishnah?!

I'd have to read up about this Tashlumin

But to Yisroel,

of course shmini atzeret is an independent festival.
when i say shmini atzeret is not succot and succot is not shmini atzeret, I mean shimini atzeret is an independent festival. But more than that. I mean it's not part of succot and vice versa

so your references to 2 names of shmini atzeret don't change that.

Indeed, as you say
" the Torah does indeed refer to Shmini Atzeres as "on the 8th day", implying that it is connected to Succos."

it is connected in that it's an additional day of celebration AFTER succot!

Shmini atzeret is the biblical 8th day of celebration. But biblical succot is 7 days.
In the diaspora, we add a day to the end of succot, to hoshana rabba, so it's 8 days. And so on the 22 Tishri the rabbinical extra day of succot coincides with the observance of shmini atzeret. They coincide in the doaspora, they overlap, doesn't mane shmini atzeret succot. And in Israel they don't overlap. THey are idnependent , Different, festivals. Biblically defined on different dates but only overlapping in the diaspora, as you know, not because of similarity, but because of the new moon issue/extra day of HR.

To be more specific, only the first day of shmini atzeret coincdies with HR's second day, the rabbinical extra day of hoshana rabba. So there is no 9th day of succot. The 23rd tishri, 2nd rabbinical day of shmini atzeret (and day of simchat torah), the 9th day of celebration, doesn't coincide with succot. Because it doesn't touch HR, the last day of succot