quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:

quote:

Originally posted by Hawke:
[ how many people are aware or remember what no one knew until 1946 regarding the megillah esther?

That's easy

nobody knew what the small letters on the page with big letters meant until 1946. the small letters are 1946. which was the year that the nazi thugs hung, just like haman's sons. In fact one of the thugs aluded to this himself before they hung him,

EXACTLY! And there are other mysteries eluded to in this scroll which no one has been able to uncover yet, which may mean that in the future.......

quote:

Originally posted by Hawke:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bracha:
I just learned a very deep and interesting chasidishe vort for Purim that I'd like to share:

Why did Vashti not appear before King Achashverosh unclothed? (I can tell you it wasnt because she was a tzedekas!)

Oy-vey! Are you a woman-hater! Bogus. I've studied alot and this would seem to be an extreme commentary on the megillah, which is so riddled with mystery that it is a little risky to take it so seriously one wonders. For example, how many people are aware or remember what no one knew until 1946 regarding the megillah esther?

Okay, yes, I am commenting on my own comment....now that I consider the tail thing, I'm seriously reconsidering how I look at Vashti. S/He was a meshuggenah cross-dresser maybe? (Men have 'tails', women have 'split-tails')Gross. Really gross.

quote:

Originally posted by Bracha:
Raybin-

Vashti didnt appear before the King out lack of strength or anything as a result of illness- she simply didnt want to appear before the King and his company because when her beauty was put to a true test- it couldnt hold up.

Okay, now here's a question: why are you men so intent on judging a female person's righteousness by her physical beauty? Sometimes we're pretty and sometimes we're not, but that doesn't determine our rightousness. Some pretty deformed people have been genuinely righteous.

quote:

Originally posted by Hawke:

quote:

Originally posted by Hawke:
[ how many people are aware or remember what no one knew until 1946 regarding the megillah esther?

That's easy

nobody knew what the small letters on the page with big letters meant until 1946. the small letters are 1946. which was the year that the nazi thugs hung, just like haman's sons. In fact one of the thugs aluded to this himself before they hung him,

EXACTLY! And there are other mysteries eluded to in this scroll which no one has been able to uncover yet, which may mean that in the future.......[/QUOTE]

Ok Mr. Hawke

I answered your shailah.
Can you answer mine.

It's brought down that Vashti would only have had her head cut off if she did not lie. She stated that she would not do this on her grandfater's yartzeit.
Do you now how we know when the aniversary of her grandfather's death was.

think pesach.

RMKF.

to me Vashti represents feminism in the way she refuses to be paraded like a prize turkey for Achashverosh and his "buddies"

and the response to her refusal, "For this deed of the queen will come abroad unto all women, to make their husbands contemptable in their eyes, when it will be said: The king Achashverosh commanded Vashti the queen to be brought to him but she came not." 1:17

sounds very contemporary, at this point to me the king is primarily representing a human male-not representing The King, and his response is more a matter of human pride and saving face

I see a parallel between Vashti and Mordechai in that Mordaichai refuses to bow or submit to Haman and Haman's response also is more a matter of pride
and just as Vashti's refusal reflects on all women and Mordachai's refusal reflects on all Jews

both Vashti's and Mordechai's refusals are blunt, and not hidden in any way

however Mordechai's refusal to bow is for the sake of Heaven whereas Vashti's isn't


but Vashti is replaced by Esther and she endures indignities as both a woman and a Jew

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Originally posted by rob:

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It was even beneath Esther, who wasn't even a Queen until she did.But with Esther, the King just wanted to see what he was getting.

I thought the king's many servants beautified the eligible women with clothing and other adornments for some period of time before they were presented to the king. Hence they were presented fully clothed in the finest attire of the palace.

What is your source that indicates the eligible women were presented naked before the king?

Well, that's a relief that they were fully clothed! I apologize if it was offensive to anyone that I said Esther was naked, at the time, I forgot that she was a virgin.

I do not have a Tanach, so I peeked into my guardian's bible, which is the New American Standard Bible. Perhaps I read it incorrectly, since I only glanced but I saw that they were only adorned with cosmetics. I don't usually read it, but women can break the rules sometimes.

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Originally posted by Sam-:

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Originally posted by Raybin:
And antisemitism was on the rise because Esther had become Queen.

According to the verse in Esther 2:10, "Esther did not tell [Achashverosh] what her nation or birthplace was, as Mordechai had commanded her not to tell" therefore, the antisemitism could not have been becauase of Esther. Achashverosh only found out what was Esther's identity during the second party that she made for the king and Haman.

It was just my opinion.The King was not antisemitic. I think that Haman knew Esther was Jewish. He must have known Mordechai was Jewish since he wouldn't bow down to him. And he must have known Esther was related to Mordechai. Plus I think that Haman was a power hungry thug who had spies.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sharachana:
to me Vashti represents feminism in the way she refuses to be paraded like a prize turkey for Achashverosh and his "buddies"

In a way, to me, it doesn't represent feminism. But reminds me of women who want to cover their hair but their husbands won't let them.

Sam- It is just my opinion, but I think that Haman had a relative that he was hoping to become Queen.

re:raybin
women who want to cover their heads usually do so for "religious" purposes no? So in that case their husbands are commanding them to break halacha

whereas in Vashti's case she's refusing to obey her husband the king's command to appear before a drunken party

but in both cases the husband's command is for the woman to surrender her dignity

even if Vashti's previous behavior was licentous that doesn't rule out the possibility of a moment of digntity on her part

quote:

Well, that's a relief that they were fully clothed! I apologize if it was offensive to anyone that I said Esther was naked, at the time, I forgot that she was a virgin.

I don't think she can have been a virgin; she was, after all, married to Mordechai (according to the Talmud).

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by sharachana:
to me Vashti represents feminism in the way she refuses to be paraded like a prize turkey for Achashverosh and his "buddies"

In a way, to me, it doesn't represent feminism. But reminds me of women who want to cover their hair but their husbands won't let them.

You're missing the point. Vashti's reason for non-appearance was because she wasn't looking her best, she had leprosy and a tail.
Otherwise, she would have been delighted to appear before the King, as she had done before.

I havent been on this thread for about the past week and I do have to say I'm a little bit shocked to read that people appear to be trying to justify Vashti and remove from her the stigma of being an evil person.

Let us not forget that Vashti had such an evil streak within her that she would DAVKA take Jewish girls and make them be m'chalel shabbos while serving her without clothes. Not only this, but she wanted to that the Jews should all sin though relations not permitted to them- and although she held a seperate women's party there is the opinion that it was on a balcony by the men so that they should look upon the women and have their desires arroused.

The was no good within this female and her actions cannot be written off as coming from a ligitimate standpoint- such as tznuis or moral ethics. Her ga'avah was simply so great that she thought she was above the King and would not appear before him and his court- and only when she was ready to finally submit- she lost the only thing she had going for her- and thus she of course would not go.


Raybin- you mentioned that you believed Haman had a relative that he wanted to marry the King. We learn that it was Haman's own daughter he desired to take the role of Queen, however, because of hasgocha, she emitted a foul odor and messed herself when the royal screeners were sent out to find the beautiful girls- and was disqualified from the running for queen.

okay I'll think about this further but one thing still stands-Vashti's act does come to reflect on all wives and Mordacai's act does come to reflect on all Jews no?

Vashti doesnt necessarily come to reflect on all wives. Vashti was a goyishe wife- something very different from what Jewish wives are. She did not play by the same rules we do.

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Originally posted by Raybin:

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
And antisemitism was on the rise because Esther had become Queen.

According to the verse in Esther 2:10, "Esther did not tell [Achashverosh] what her nation or birthplace was, as Mordechai had commanded her not to tell" therefore, the antisemitism could not have been becauase of Esther. Achashverosh only found out what was Esther's identity during the second party that she made for the king and Haman.

It was just my opinion.The King was not antisemitic. I think that Haman knew Esther was Jewish. He must have known Mordechai was Jewish since he wouldn't bow down to him. And he must have known Esther was related to Mordechai. Plus I think that Haman was a power hungry thug who had spies.

Your opinion should be checked out if anyone has anything to say on that, i.e. any commentaries by the Rabbis etc. Since we do know that Eshter was told not to say anything, we can't presume that Haman knew.

Haman had other problems with Mordechai, according to the Medrash both Haman and Achasverosh were generals and in charge of dividing up food - and Haman used up his and needed food for his army. He went to Mordechai and asked him for food. Mordechai said "yes on condition you sell yourself as a slave". Haman had no choice but to say yes. Mordechai wrote that Haman is a slave to Mordechai on the bottom of his shoe.

Fast forward to the time of Haman marching around and people bowing down to him. Mordechai showed the shoe to Haman, showing Haman who the master is! And that Mordechail refusing to bow down was a reminder to Haman and angered him.

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
Sam- It is just my opinion, but I think that Haman had a relative that he was hoping to become Queen.

Yes, a daughter, if I remember correctly; and at the time of the soldiers searching for a new queen, when they entered Hamans house, this daughter who Haman wanted to be queen, had a bad case of "shilshul" - diahreaha.