Many of us have relatives or know of Jews who are intermarried.

After the fact, if a Jewish man has gentile children, are there any published guides for how to raise them to be proper Noachides?

I have not heard of such a publication. however the rabbis at http://www.noahide.org I am sure will be able to help since they spealize in this area.

though another possiblitiy is to have the child coverted and give the child a traditional jewish up bringing.

The child coudn't be converted until (a) the father divorces the non-Jewish mother (b) the father gets full custody and (c) the father becomes fully observant.

Great responses so far - let me further specify what I think to be general boundaries on the situation where I think general guidance can continue.

For example, conversion to Judaism is neither a goal nor an option.

Lets assume that the gentile wife is Jewish-friendly, and capable of living a Noachide life; and that the Jewish husband does not even aspire to live a fully observant or divorced life, accepting that he has dug himself into a hole from which he cannot extricate himself by divorce or by committment to mitzvos.

What guidance can we give him to not make his situation any worse....

For example deluding his gentile children or himself into thinking these children are Jewish likely would have no beneficial effect to any Jews, or these kids.

Is it good to accept their Noachide obligations and remain compatible with being among Jews?

Does he get to perform a mitzvah of educating his Noachide children in how to be a proper Noachide? Is that mitzvah half-chinuch and half-spreading knowledge of Hashem to the world?

I can see several potential paths causing pain, resentment, hatred of Torah and Jewish values, by causing children with the potential to be righteous Noachides to feel abandonment and resentment, or take on idolatrous ways.... or cause an otherwise happy couple to feel forcibly separated from their spouse.

Is there some Torah wisdom that can show the sweetness of mitzvos that can prevent such a bad situation from becoming worse?

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Great responses so far - let me further specify what I think to be general boundaries on the situation where I think general guidance can continue.

For example, conversion to Judaism is neither a goal nor an option.

STEVE: Are you speaking of the kids, or of the wife? It makes a big difference if the wife might be interested. It's not unusual for the Jewish spouse in such cases to grow in their own observance together with the potential convert.

quote:

Lets assume that the gentile wife is Jewish-friendly, and capable of living a Noachide life; and that the Jewish husband does not even aspire to live a fully observant or divorced life, accepting that he has dug himself into a hole from which he cannot extricate himself by divorce or by committment to mitzvos.

STEVE: Again, a lot depends on the wife's attitude toward Judaism. If she has an interest, then that will often motivate him to investigate the Judaism he never learned about before.
Divorce in the situation you describe would likely convert one Jew and four non-Jews into haters of Judaism, and probably remove all possibility of his ever even thinking about making Judaism his again. But if he can be shown the beauty of Judaism, and his wife develops an interest in converting ...
And don't forget, too, that Jewish observance is not an "all or nothing" thing, especially for those coming from a non-observant start. Better to do what one can that say "I can't do it all so I'll do nothing." If the doctor prescribed an hour of daily exercise, and one can only do 45 minutes, the 45 minutes is surely better than nothing. :-) The same applies here -- especially if he wants his children to take religion and spirituality seriously rather than as a joke. Children learn a lot more from what we do than from what we say!

quote:

What guidance can we give him to not make his situation any worse....

For example deluding his gentile children or himself into thinking these children are Jewish likely would have no beneficial effect to any Jews, or these kids.

Is it good to accept their Noachide obligations and remain compatible with being among Jews?

STEVE: Right on both counts. He should definitely not tell them they're Jewish. He probably also doesn't know much about the Noachide covenant, to be able to teach them about it. If he's willing, that might be a great opportunity for him to start developing a relationship with an appropriate rabbi, with the hope that a friendship developed there could open other doors for him to consider for himself. Finding the right rabbi, and if possible making him aware of the situation so that he knows enough to be helpful, is the key. If you don't know the right person, feel free to contact me at SAlbertJewish at aol dot com, and perhaps I or one of my online contacts will be able to help find someone.

And yes, Noachides can definitely get along well with Jews. Some have attended synagogue for years for Shabbat and Yom Tov; some Noachides have reached out to rahhis or other knowledgeable Jews to learn from. And I know an Orthodox military chaplain who a few months ago did the funeral for a Noachide who'd been in the military.

quote:

Does he get to perform a mitzvah of educating his Noachide children in how to be a proper Noachide? Is that mitzvah half-chinuch and half-spreading knowledge of Hashem to the world?

STEVE: In halachic terms, I don't think he has any "Noachide" children; the father-child relationship doesn't exist, in a technical halachic sense, between a non-Jew and the male Jew who might be the biological father. He does, however, certainly have an ethical obligation toward these children he helped bring into the world, and it would certainly be proper for him to teach them about the Noachide covenant and their obligations under it. There are limits to the Judaism that he would be allowed to teach, and that would be best discussed with the rabbi I suggest above. A very rough rule of thumb might be that anything having to do with the Noachide laws, with moral and ethical behavior toward others, with basic knowledge of G-d (one, incorporeal, involved in the world continuously, etc.), and with the Tanach and its simple meaning, would probably be OK according to most opinions.
[/QUOTE]

quote:

I can see several potential paths causing pain, resentment, hatred of Torah and Jewish values, by causing children with the potential to be righteous Noachides to feel abandonment and resentment, or take on idolatrous ways.... or cause an otherwise happy couple to feel forcibly separated from their spouse.

Is there some Torah wisdom that can show the sweetness of mitzvos that can prevent such a bad situation from becoming worse?

STEVE: I hope I've started to answer your questions. It's just a start, though -- and one thing you haven't mentioned is how he feels about all of it.

The Hagah in Even HaEzer 16:2 states that the child that comes from a Jewish man living with a gentile woman is not his son (unlike the other forbidden relationships where it is his son). Therefore the father has no obligations at all to this child.

He cannot claim that he has "dug himself into a hole from which he cannot extricate himself". There are no excuses, and he must leave this women immediately.

He has no more obligation to teach this child the seven laws of Noach then he does any other gentile child. I would venture to say that it is forbidden for him to keep a relationship with this child as it will come sustain the relationship with the child's mother.

I understand that all this is difficult but I believe these are the facts.

PS: I did not see Steve Alberts post when I wrote my response so I would like to add that I do not believe you will not find a posak from the Yeshivaish world which will allow this gentile women to convert in order to marry this man. We are not worried about "haters of Judaism" in such a situation. We are worried about Judaism. I know that in reality its -(quote) "not unusual for the Jewish spouse in such cases to grow in their own observance together with the potential convert" but that does not make it correct.

rob my friend it is important that you are concern. however since it appears you are not one of these children partents, it is hard to help in this matter. The fact you have not really told us that either one of them have a desire to raise their children as Noachides doesn't make it any easier.

I am not sure what jewish friendly is. for i have friends who are jewish friendly but they don't want to be jewish nevermind being a Noachide. however if she is interested in learning about Judaism then she can always talk to a rabbi. in fact the website i gave you http://www.noahide.org and through their converstation the rabbi knowing more of the sitution then we do can truly help her.

as far as the husband do you know why he has no desire for Torah or HaShem?

by Jewish-friendly I mean two aspects. First that she doesn't seem to give over any idolatrous ways. And almost by definition being married to a Jew.

I recall my rabbi once mentioning a trend in kiruv with intermarried couples, that the gentile spouse is often more interested in learning about Judaism than the Jewish spouse. The context of discussion was permitting a gentile spouse on Pesach for kiruv purpose with the Jewish spouse.

For those intermarried couples where neither conversion or divorce are viable options, or particularly unlikely initial steps in a path of teshuva, even if there is no more obligation to make biological children aware of Hashem than any other gentiles, is it a mitzvah that a Jewish father can perform?

Is it good to keep Noachide children from falling trap into idolatrous practices?

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Mitterhoff:
The Hagah in Even HaEzer 16:2 states that the child that comes from a Jewish man living with a gentile woman is not his son (unlike the other forbidden relationships where it is his son). Therefore the father has no obligations at all to this child.

Steve: Agreed, he has no obligations to the child *as his son.* However, obligations do arise in another way: If he were to simply ignore them, and not support or teach them, then the vast majority of non-Jews and non-observant Jews would consider that very unethical and an avoidance of what they (and secular courts) would consider a clear obligation. Making Judaism look bad this way is a chillul Hashem (see halacha governing relationships between non-Jews after they convert, where the chachamim prohibited marriages that would have been permitted, to avoid making Judaism seem inferior to other religions or social systems).

quote:

He cannot claim that he has "dug himself into a hole from which he cannot extricate himself". There are no excuses, and he must leave this women immediately.

STEVE: But that's exactly what he's NOT willing to do, and telling him to do so will cut off contact and the chance to slowly bring him to teshuva. Rabbonim working in kiruv don't work that way; they try to reach the Jew at his own level and bring him up from there. It's analogous to the mitzvah of tochacha -- if the person won't listen, the mitzvah is to NOT give tochacha that will be rejected.

quote:

He has no more obligation to teach this child the seven laws of Noach then he does any other gentile child. I would venture to say that it is forbidden for him to keep a relationship with this child as it will come sustain the relationship with the child's mother.

STEVE: The original poster indicated that he absolutely will not leave his "wife" or "children." Telling him that that is his only option will only drive him further away; he needs to be drawn closer with ahavas yisroel, not driven away with demands he will not even consider following at this point.

quote:

I understand that all this is difficult but I believe these are the facts.

PS: I did not see Steve Alberts post when I wrote my response so I would like to add that I do not believe you will not find a posak from the Yeshivaish world which will allow this gentile women to convert in order to marry this man. We are not worried about "haters of Judaism" in such a situation. We are worried about Judaism. I know that in reality its -(quote) "not unusual for the Jewish spouse in such cases to grow in their own observance together with the potential convert" but that does not make it correct.

STEVE: The whole situation is not "correct" and the question is what to do about it. In Israel, where intermarriage is rare, and even secular Jews are constantly aware of being Jewish, there isn't the same danger of driving someone away forever as those of us in other countries see.
And I included among the "haters of Judaism" not only the non-Jews involved, but also the Jew if he were approached the wrong way.

As for poskim, the Nodah BiYehuda wrote strongly along the same lines that I'm arguing. More recently, R. Moshe Feinstein wrote teshuvos on such issues, and having reviewed some of them again last night I find that he says a lot of suspicion is needed to be sure that the ger is really sincere and not just converting for marriage, but that it can be done, and he even mentions in one teshuva that he would allow the couple to marry afterwards.

May all Yidden do teshuva, so that we don't have such problems to discuss!

A gut yontiff!

Steve Albert

My humble opinion-
We learn in chassidus (Tanya of the Alter Rebbe) that all Yidden are children of G-d. That just as a Father through a drop of semen places a piece of himself into a child so does G-d to us. That is inside of you and I is a "Neshamat ha-Elokit (Godly soul)" a piece of Ha-kadosh Baruch-hu himself. Thus in placing a piece of himself into a gentile woman, this man has placed a piece of himself into children who do not hold the Halachic status of "Jew." But yet are still a piece of himself. This man's Tshuva has become much more difficult because it not only involves himself now- also his seed that is bound up inside of "gentile" children. However, as a Jew our sole mission in life is to wage a "take-no-prisoners" war on Galoot (exile). A bit of Shechina- m'mash is now further in exile. This does not mean (G-d forbid) it is beyond redemtion. The waters of Mikva can bring back the most wayward soul even as Rabbi Akiva said "Happy are you Israel- for G-d himself is your Mikva."

Rabbi Miterhoff
With all due respect and deference I must state unequivicably that I have been involved with Litvish and Chasidish poskim that have converted sincere spouses of jews and their children. This has included non-observant jews and FFB that went off the derech and inter-married. This has also included men and women. Although Rabbi Miterhoff is absolutely correct in his understanding; it is not how the resolution to these situations is usually carried out in reality.
M Fink

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Albert:
As for poskim, the Nodah BiYehuda wrote strongly along the same lines that I'm arguing. More recently, R. Moshe Feinstein wrote teshuvos on such issues, and having reviewed some of them again last night I find that he says a lot of suspicion is needed to be sure that the ger is really sincere and not just converting for marriage, but that it can be done, and he even mentions in one teshuva that he would allow the couple to marry afterwards.

I would have to say, from very personal experience, that this is true. If the non-Jewish spouse is sincere, then both geirus (of spouse and children) and subsequent marriage can be permitted.

Speaking of marriage...Does anyone know where it is written that Thy Jewish mother shall nudge her beautiful intelligent Jewish daughter twenty-four six to find a husband?
Also could you find the Halakahic law that states when thy daughter does not find a husband by the age of twenty(in two months) she is joyfully going aliyah without her parents blessings in order to study further without a nice Jewish husband?
Also could you find where it says that even nice Jewish girls sometimes don't eat gefilte fish because they dont eat animals? Not even gefilte (which is white fish because there is no such thing as a gefilte)
Thank-You Olivia

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Great responses so far - let me further specify what I think to be general boundaries on the situation where I think general guidance can continue.

For example, conversion to Judaism is neither a goal nor an option.

Lets assume that the gentile wife is Jewish-friendly, and capable of living a Noachide life; and that the Jewish husband does not even aspire to live a fully observant or divorced life, accepting that he has dug himself into a hole from which he cannot extricate himself by divorce or by committment to mitzvos.

What guidance can we give him to not make his situation any worse....

Hello Rob, I have a question for you: Have you thought about the problems of a Jewish person living with non-Jewish people in the same house? If there's wine, for example, then it is problematic for the Jew to use if the Gentiles in the family touch it.

Rav Blumenkrantz gave a wonderful discussion about mevushal (boiled) wine for Pesach use in one of his annual Pesach books which discusses some of this.

Wine that is not boiled is subject to a problem if gentiles touch (or some hold look!) at it. And thus if a gentile will for whatever reason be at a Pesach Seder its necessary to only use mevushal wine.

For Pesach however it seems preferable to use non-mevushal wine.

For the situation you describe, probably if a Jew is living in a home or dormitory with gentiles, probably they should be careful to have only mevushal wine.

And for a Jewish relative who is in the situation of having Noachide children is probably not so stringent on himself to want to have non-mevushal wine at his seder.

I gave that as an example, but in general, the wife will have a hard time if the husband were to become more observant. Is she considering any change in her life? Divorce him and take the kids? She becomes Jewish (and then what becomes of the kids)?

I understand from your repeated statements that he is not looking to become observant and she is not looking to convert.
I would like to ask a somewhat retorical question if I may.
IF THEY HAVE NO INCLINATION TOWARDS MITZVOS WHY ON EARTH WOULD THEY BE INTERESTED IN BEING NOACHIDE????
My answer to any answer given to that question would be that there must be some interest in spirituality and / or religion, and they are not pursuing one of the avodas zorah commonly available. Therefore, they need guidance, they need to sit with a compassionate torah observant rav and learn what it is that they are (in his case) rejecting and (in her case) not accepting. Most Jews brought up in non-observant homes are not even able to understand the concept of mitzvah observance, it is extremely unfortunate. The husband needs to understand his religion and himself before he can expect his wife or his children to become a part of his religion or even to ask them not to follow other religions.

A Jew has the obligation to raise his children as Jews, not as Noachides. If they are not Jews and they live with him, they are in a Jewish household and will live like Jews. Appropriate provisions should be made for them as "Shabbat Goyim" in your household. If they are living with their mother, they are not your responsibility as to how they are raised. You provide the child support as dictated by the goyish courts and be there for them for any other support, but technically they are not your children. This can be a very painful thing, I've been there.

If his children are not Jews, what do you mean to raise his children to live like Jews?

What do see as the difference between your words - Shabbat Goyim - and my term - Righteous Gentiles who have no knowledge of any gentile faith?

Moshe Y

You must read all of the posts before you answer or there is no flow to the conversation. This person is happily married and has no intention of changing that status. There are no child support issues or it's there mother's house issues. As for bringing his kid's up jewish; he has already indicated that he has no interest in torah and mitzvos so what should he be doing to bring his children up like jews, which would cause more halachic problems than it solves.