quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
So even though the “anti-wig” crowd conveinently leave out these Poskim when they bring down their propaganda (so thus those that are influenced by them might not have heard of this, but The Rama, Pri Migadim and Mishna B’rurah all permit wearing wigs. Are they not from the biggest Baalai Horah that Klal Yisroel have? Are they not Poskim that people can rely on? (Or they are just “double agent” for the Sitrah Achar and the Yetzer Hara? Chas V’Sholom for anybody to even to suggest this!) Puk Chazi Ma Ama D’var and everyone is Noheg to wear them.

So there I presented, in this post and my last, all the Mara M’Komos needed to present the case to permit it (so anybody can look it up and see for themselves if I’m making anything up.) Could you please bring the sources for your prohibition (See Rabbi Mitterhoff’s post on bringing down sources.) Is this Chasam Sofer in a T’shuva somewhere (so bring down where this is in his T’shuva,) or is it from hearsay (which, of course, brings up doubts if it’s for real, or a rumor created by the anti-wig crowd. There are a lot of scholars here, who do not take hearsay as any proof,. Especially quoting people that are not from the Gedolai Haposkim as if it’s a defining opinion) I would like to know where it is, even though, for Halacha, I wouldn’t change what I wrote, since it wouldn’t push off a Rama, Pri Migadim and Mishna Brurah and the Pushut Minhug.

Before you so lightly dismiss the "anti-wig" crowd you might care to have a look at Yabia Omer Volume 5 Even HaEzer Siman 5. One thing that HaRav Ovadiah Yosef (tell me you don't consider him one of the Gedolei HaPoskim) cannot be accused of is not quoting all the relevant authorities (including the Chasam Sofer which is apparently a Hagoho on the Magen Avraham and it is also in his Tzavo'oh).

HaRav Ovadiah is, of course, a Posek for the Sefardim and we Ashkenazim can rely on the Ashkenazi authorities (including HaRav Moshe Feinstein z"tl who permitted wigs).

I’m aware of r’ Ovadya Yosef’s view. When I referred to anti-wig crowd, I was referring to the “Kol Korah” types, that only brings a bent view, only bring down authorities that agree with them and dismiss those that disagree, as if they don’t exist, so to dismiss those that disagree with them that they don’t have what to rely on. I don’t mind if those whose Poskin Assur that they are Machmer. That’s fine. But don’t make a blanket statement that those are Meikel, wheree it’s obvious they have what to rely on, that they are wrong, and their Poskim are being duped by the Sitra Achar.

I do not recall making any such blanket statement.

I am reminded of the person who asked a She'eila of HaRav Moshe Feinstein z"tl and asked for a machmir [strict] ruling. Rav Moshe answered that he was not a machmir, but that he merely ruled on what the Halacha was.

I didn�t say you said it. There are others that post here too.

Quotes from Rav Yaakovi Bar Nahman

�Why do women wear wigs, why do men pernit or request them? One very simple yet truthful answer, "Yeisser Hara". It is known that th eintellect is well adapted to be a capable lawyer for the Yeisser Hara.�

�. As is wont the Yeisser Hara loves to get his long filthy nose Davka into the realms of the religious, the more the better, because when succeeding to bring a "kilkul" there he feels better also gets more to "eat" because the more pure spirituality there is the more energy there is. So when he causes a fall he gets to "eat" the energy, when he causes a fall/stumble among the righteous etc the meal is juicier richer�.


�The Sitra Akhra makes greatest efforts to confuse the greatest Halakhik minds to veer from absolute truth/heavenly deisire so as to cause them to err and suck more "energy" for himself & his Dark Side powers.(Zohar in modern terminology)�

�It is difficult to rule against something that has gotten out of hand, & many Rabanim would rather find a way to permit than fight a fashion.�


�. "A woman who wears a wig wants to look like a "night consort"" When asked what about a Rabbis wife who wears a wig, he answered "she too", when asked what a Rabbi who permits it, his answer was far from complimentary.�



I want to say that I have nothing against Rav Yaakovi personally. I'm sure he's very knowledgeable and would be very good for this forum. But when these statements come up were, in my opinion , it seems to be unjustified in liu that there are plenty of Poskim, both earlier and later, that permit it, I feel I need to make a stand on it. This is not a closed forum, for the most part, and people have a right to state their disagreements if they feel (and have proof) that something maybe not so simply put to make such blanket statements.

I'm sorry to have started a war! But think how boring this web site would be if everyone agreed on everything. Granted that there are many, many things in Jewish law that are unarguable, however, there is a long, long tradition of Jewish scholars arguing the fine points, and I don't think anyone should be offended if this tradition is continued.

On a totally different point now: Here we are, arguing about how immodest a woman may seem if she wears a wig. This "immodest" Jewish woman is wearing long sleeves and a long skirt. Going farther than appearance, she conducts herself in a modest fashion. Wig or no wig, it cannot be argued that observant Jewish women in America, in Israel, and everywhere dress and act much more along the lines that G-d intended. Isn't it interesting, then, that Islamic terrorists target Israel much more than they target America? Many American women walk around with their navels, cleavage, and part of their "cheeks" showing. Almost all American-made movies feature unmarried intercourse. And yet America has had two terrorist attacks versus Israel's thousands. If this is truly a war on morality, as the Islamists insist, why target Israel at all? What an excuse.

Very brief since I must run too selihhot.
Did not mention pro wig Poskim/sources because I am not talking in favor of wigs. The ones who talk in favor bring their own "backing" why should I. Those in favor don't go mentioning sources/poskim against for the same reason.
Why might someone permit abang & not full? because their is a reading "Tefahh beisha erva" and thus excuse the bang if less tah a tefahh.
I saw th eHhatam Sofer writen with source don't recallat present exactly where it is.
Am up to my eyebrows busy these days.
Everything I wrote was from more senior (to my 58 years) rabbinical sources.
More so other time.
bebrakha & kol hayeshuoth

No-one needs a real logical truthful reason to kill Jews just an excuse even illogoical will do. That's old hat. we're used to it, we survived it for thousands of years already, & wil keeep surviving it.
Also the terrorist attacks in USA killed at least as many people as have been killed in scores of years of attacks in Israel. (poo poo poo bli ayin hara)
Maybe it's harder for AL Qaida to do what they want in the USA than for our local terrorists here. ANyhow don't feel left out Osama has promised you more including nukes that are supposedly already in place in targeted USA cities. If intelligence reports that his "group 9" which is in charge of the nukes is managed by a Taureg shiekh, then start sweating (MI 5 & 6 are already worried by this). Those Tauregs are world class master smugglers, sneakier and more thorough and tougher than the Cosa Nostra de Sicliano ever was.

Guess what... There are some serious Ashkenazi Poskim who are against wigs too.

BS"D

From my point of view
I live in Mea Shearim but I am not charedi, I'm what one would call charedi leumi Modern charedi. Manny of my friends are charedim and manny are dati leumi (modern orthodox). When it comes down to tzenua sometimes the modern orthodox woman are much more tzenua than the charedi. How come ?? A long tight skirt and long sleeved shirt thats also tight is certanly more atractive men than a long (or half long) skirt with a short sleeved baggy shirt on top of it. Even if one follows the complete halacha of tzniut one can still look extremely atractive.
In Mea Shearim the women usualy wear long skirts that are not tight and long sleeved shirts that are not tight.
Tzniut comes often down to behaviour and personal modesty like make up and tightness of the clothes. And sometimes even the footwear.
In my oppinion (just an oppinion) women with short sleeves can be just as modest as women with long sleeves.

Although all opinions are welcome at the GlobalYeshiva. The point must remain what is acceptable within the confines of halacha. We all have opinions, some of which may defend. At the end of the day we must defer to halocha as well as the wisdom od dass torah and work to understand what we are doing while living according to halocha. So the question is what is the halocha not if we think halacha is correct.

What is the halacha on wigs anyway? I know there are differing opinions but what's the halacha? Is it true that the wigs some of the earlier sages poseked on were actually different; i.e. wigs worn under a hat which weren't really mean to imitate one's hair.

The Halacha goes according to the differeing opinions, depending on which opinion you follow.

For example, we are Ashkenazi and here in London wigs are generally acceptable. Certainly, those wives of the Ashkenazi Dayanim whom I know do wear wigs. So for my wife the Halacha is that she may wear a wig.

My daughter, on the other hand, is married to a Sefardi whose family/community follow the rulings of HaRav Ovadiah Yosef and therefore for my daughter the halacha is that she may not wear a wig.

You want to know what the Halacha is for you; for that you need to ask your Rav.

I know many women tend to do simply what their mothers did. Is that the underlying minhag on wigs? OR is it determined specifically by posek?

That's what Minhag's all about; following in the traditions and customs of one's parents.

It is a bit more complicated, however, if a girl marries into a family with a different set of Minhagim. There are certain of her husband's Minhagim she must observe and certain she may retain from her own family. Since I'm not an expert, I am not going to give any details.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniella613:

- Even if one follows the complete halacha of tzniut one can still look extremely atractive.

-In my oppinion (just an oppinion) women with short sleeves can be just as modest as women with long sleeves.

A Jewish woman is always supposed to look attractive- but not attention grabbing. There is a difference. She should always be presentable and appear to all that she is the bas melech that she is. As the daughter of the King, she doesn't flaunt her glory- but modestly conducts herself in a way that her beauty is obvious but not blatant. As in everything in life- there is a balance.

How do we determine this balance? By halacha. As you said Daniella, short sleeves being just as tznuis as long is only an opinion- but when it comes to Jewish life- we dont follow our own opinions when there is communal law.
There are such laws as the sleeves should be three inches below the elbow and the skirt four inches below the bottom of the knee. Nothing should be tight and form fitting.

Its not about being unattractive- its about being a bas melech.

There is a wonderful amazing book that is highly esteemed that I feel every Jewish woman should own or at least read called, "Oz v'hadar lvusha- Modesty, an adornment for life."

available at eichlers.com http://www.eichlers.com/details.cfm?Group_ID=466&Product_ID=4422

In this book you find the halachos for everything related to being a tznua- from length of garments, to tznuis materials and how to find the right type of clothing, to makeup and hair style/length to kol isha to etc etc etc...

Kol tuv.

BS"D

I think you misunderstood the point I was making.
Namely that you don't need to dress non-tzenua to look atractive.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulette:
"I have a question regarding the difference between Orthodox Jews and Chasidic Jews. I have heard definitions for BOTH that they are the ones who strictly follow the laws of the Torah. If they both follow the same laws, how can there be differences? Also, what are the differences aside from appearance? Are the differences major?"

Paulette,

Each community is admonished by our Rabbis in the Talmud to continue to adhere to the customs and practices of his own particular place, without changing or altering his custom. This is the admonition of the Talmud in various places (especially the 4th chapter of Pesahim), namely, that each Jewish community is obliged to uphold and maintain the customs and enactments accepted by its community, although those customs might differ from place to place. This explains, Paulette, why we see differences between orthodox communities. The Sephardim mostly will eat pulse (Heb. "Kitniyoth" = lentils, rice, corn, sorghum, millet, peas, etc.) on Pesach, but the Ashkenazim will not do so - since the latter took upon themselves restrictions concerning these things.

The strictures taken up by one group do not necessarily obligate another group. Polygamy is a good example of this. In all cases where we find leniency in a certain practice, it is only because the Torah, itself, actually permits the thing, but others have come along and excercised stringency over the matter.

Nevertheless, in all these seemingly "outward" differences, in actuality every group or movement upholds the basic rules and teachings of Judaism. All of them keep the Sabbath; all of them circumcise their male children on the eighth day; all of them observe the Passover celebrations and abstain from eating "chometz" (leavened bread); all of them read from the same scroll of the Law; all of them abstain from mixing meat and dairy products together; none will touch swine's flesh, catfish, shrimps, lobsters, or any other unclean animals named in the Torah; all of them observe Sukkoth, Yom Kippur, &c., and all don Tefillin (phylacteries)and wear hats (or yarmulkes), as also shawls equipped with tassels, etc. etc., so that at length we find that the similarities are greater than the dissimilarities.

Sincerely,
David Ben-Abraham

Many observant Jews today did not have observant parents. So the idea of following one's mother's practice falls apart if she wasn't observant. I know some modern orthodox women who get by not covering their hair saying that's what their mothers did....when their mothers were not observant.

isn't there something to be said about following the minhag of the community in which you live? For instance, if the community wears sheitlach, then one is more tznius if she also wears a sheitl than if she stands out while wearing a snood/tichl/etc? The same holds for wearing stockings - if a woman comes from a community where they do not wear them and she moves to a community wear they do she is obligated to wear stockings so that she'll be tznius (even though to not wear stockings was considered tznius in her community).

And what if one moves to a community where women go half naked would that also be more tznius to go that way.

If one thinks that a sheitel is not appropriate than she shouldn't wear it anywhere. Get the other women in the community to change their ways.