Much research has shown that Judaism is unique in that it is the only religion that claims a national revelation where a Divine Torah was given to millions of nations. Other religions claim that the founder (one person) received a prophecy from G-d.

So lets examine Judaism's claim about a national revelation? Our question now is is this claim true? Does this claim have the evidence to back it up?

Let's say, for arguments sake, that one day I came on to this forum and said 'Guess what? I'm all shaken up! Last night G-d appeared to me and he told me that I am His prophet and he told me to tell you x,y,z..' How many of you would believe me? If I am charismatic enough and I have proven myself to be trustworthy to you, a few might possibly believe me.

However, if I came and said 'Can you believe what just happened? All of you just heard G-d choose me to be your prophet!' of course not a single person will believe me.

SO, while it may be possible to convince a person of events that happened to me, I cannot convince someone of something that happened to him if it didn't!

Our question now is, is there any concievable way to convince a nation that they witnessed the giving of the Torah if it did not happen?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gila,

I've found a great book that deals with this question. The Aryeh Kaplan Anthology by the original and incisive writer, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan.

As a graduate student, he was described in a scientific “Who’s Who” as the most promising young physicist in America. When he decided to devote his life to teaching Torah, the Jewish people gained a brilliant writer with the uncommon gift of presenting the most complex ideas in accessible terms.

And when he passed away suddenly at the age of 48 Jewry lost a irreplaceable treasure. But he left a legacy of the thousands of people whom he touched, and of the scores of books he had written.

Excellent.

Another great book is 'beyond a resonable doubt' by Rabbi Shmuel Waldman

Also, "We Have Reason to Believe" by Louis Jacobs.

Sharona- Rabbi Smuel Waldman was my rebbi when i was in 7th grade - ididnt really get along with him but ive heard its a great book - he was actually in middle of writing it when i was with hinm so he would always read us his stuff

The problem with Kaplan is that often makes very broad, general statements that often aren't true. For example,

quote:

[Maimonides' principles] are still accepted by all Jews as as the one clear unambiguous creed of Judaism.

quote:

This is not so.

Leiser

Leiser, can you give a source for your statement?

Of course - I would be glad to.

Maimonides' Principles, 3.

<<Of course - I would be glad to.
Maimonides' Principles, 3.>>

How so? Incorporality?

...are you perhaps referring to the Chassidim?

Robby

<<So lets examine Judaism's claim about a national revelation? Our question now is is this claim true? Does this claim have the evidence to back it up?>>

There is not one contemporaneous alternative account of what happened (or didn't happen).

I don't think any Jews questioned the revelation at Sinai until the early 19th century when the reform movement came into being....and their view would certainly not be considered a contemporaneous account.

Robby

I meant, as you would know if you were following the conversation thread to even the most minimal extent, a Book by Aryeh Kaplan called "Maimonides' Principles," page 3. Where did you go to school?

quote:

There is not one contemporaneous alternative account of what happened (or didn't happen).

quote:

And this from the chap who believes the Torah to be perfect and truthful down to the last drop of ink...? I was under the impression that the Torah was a contemporaneous account... almost to the second!?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

I believe it would be just as easy to infer that you were referring to Maimonides 3rd principle out of thirteen, rather than page 3 in a book. I hate to burst your bubble, but your cryptic notes are not clear to all.

ME<<There is not one contemporaneous alternative account of what happened (or didn't happen).>>

I simply made a point that one proof of the national revelation at Sinai is that there is no alternative account saying that it didn't happen.....that is heresy?

Robby

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

r u talking about his halachos in Mishneh Torah or his 3rd principle out of the thirteen?

I'd like to make a suggestion; Anyone who does'nt know how to discuss/debate a topic with proper respect to others, and uses abusive language should be IGNORED.
On the pasuk "Hashem called to Moshe" (Vayikra 1,1) the Midrash Raba comments; Any talmid chachem who lacks Daath, a carcass is superior to him.
The meaning of daath here refers to the derech eretz Moshe showed when he did'nt enter the Ohel Moed until he was called by Hashem.
The Midrash also points out that even though Moshe Rabeinu was the greatest talmid chacham that ever lived, it did'nt in any way detract from his humbleness.

All,

I apologise. I was rather miffed at th time of writing.

However, Robby, if you follow the train of the conversation, the reference was quite clearly in answer to the question, "Where is the source from Aryeh Kaplan's works." Maybe it should have been made clearer.

And I might point out that I've been the subject of a fair bit of abuse on this site. If you lodge a complaint against me, then i shall also "launch complaints," even though I believe it to be contrary to my principles of free speech and open debate.

Sincere apologies,

Leiser

Leiser I was actually asking you for a source to back up what you wrote that it is not true that:

quote:

[Maimonides' principles] are still accepted by all Jews as as the one clear unambiguous creed of Judaism.

Please remember that there is a real person behind the post, so discussions should be kept friendly and polite, even if they may get heated. Please do not launch personal attacks.

Thank you for keeping The Global Yeshiva a friendly place.

Free speech and open debate is no excuse for being abusive and insulting.
"Divrei chachomim benachas nishmaim"

quote:

Gila:...So lets examine Judaism's claim about a national revelation? Our question now is is this claim true? Does this claim have the evidence to back it up?...if I came and said 'Can you believe what just happened? All of you just heard G-d choose me to be your prophet!' of course not a single person will believe me....Our question now is, is there any concievable way to convince a nation that they witnessed the giving of the Torah if it did not happen?

I'm afraid I can't agree at all with your argument. I can see two glaring mistakes:

First of all, you're tacking onto some circular reasoning. "The bible is true because it says millions of people witnessed it." "How do you know this?" "The bible told me" "How do you the bible's true?" At the end of your reasoning, you've ended up with the question of whether you can trust the bible - which was the question you attempted to answer at the beginning.

Secondly, you're assuming that bible-critics believe that the events in the bible actually happened and are just disputing their divinity. Most of them don't believe that Moses said "Can you believe what just happened? All of you just heard G-d choose me to be your prophet!", they say many hundred years later, a priest said "Can you believe what just happened! I've discovered this book. All of your fore-fathers heard G-d choose me to be your priest! Trust me, I can read. And write." I'm simplifying matters, but the basic concept remains: there is no real evidence that millions of people witnessed this apart from the bible so you could hardly use it to prove the bible's divine origins. Besides, millions of people witness things every day: from televised magic shows to spiritualism and all that rubbish.

Is it inconcievable to convince a nation that their fore-parents had witnessed the giving of the torah? Absolutely not. It worked for the Catholic Church for many hundred years. Very few people could read and could muster up the authority to disagree, especially since those in charge would have had absolute power. After a few generations, it'd have been forgotton. Take an example of Islam - after a while, the dubious circumstances of the discovery of the sacred text is forgotton and it becomes mystical.

To recap: there's no reason to believe millions of people witnessed the bible (as put forward in this discussion) and no reason to believe that, even if it did happen, it can't be evidence as to the divine origins of the bible. It's simply not a rational argument.

I prefer to base my own belief in the bible on Habakkuk 2:4 - "the righteous live by their faith"

Josephus

Josephus: " There's no reason to believe that millions of people witnessed the bible..."

There is a very good reason to believe in The Torah's divinity...our(Jews) survival! Despite all those over the centuries who have tried to destroy us we are still a strong and proud people. Millions upon millions of Jews have died proudly because of their FIRM belief in our Torah. This belief is a blessing. I for one firmly believe that Our Torah is of divine origin and The Work of Hashem Himself. She(The Torah)is The Beloved Bride given to every Jew by Hashem. She teaches us in our ignorance, comforts us in our sorrows, and rejoices with us in our triumphs.
G-d Bless,
Avi