quote:

Originally posted by Shmuel Kessler:
Free speech and open debate is no excuse for being abusive and insulting.
"Divrei chachomim benachas nishmaim"

I second that! It is puzzling and upsetting to see so much abusive arguing going on here - and a lot of this started rather recently - by ONE person on here. I think that this "English Chap" is not! Just a person who has multiple identities.... and enjoys arguing and belittling people online! And doesn;'t know how not to behave anonymously at all.

Due to some of the personal arguments going on here I have edited some of the posts. Please try to keep this discussions on track.

Josephus wrote

quote:

Is it inconcievable to convince a nation that their fore-parents had witnessed the giving of the torah? Absolutely not. It worked for the Catholic Church for many hundred years. Very few people could read and could muster up the authority to disagree, especially since those in charge would have had absolute power. After a few generations, it'd have been forgotton. Take an example of Islam - after a while, the dubious circumstances of the discovery of the sacred text is forgotton and it becomes mystical.

How did it work for the Church. Did they claim national revolation also? So what exactly that they claimed that should of been known to the masses that they didn't know but should of? Same of Islam. Was there any mass revelation there? It's my understanding that they were all personal revelations that they pedddled to the masses and was eventually bought. None of them dared ever to claim to a group of millions that all of their grandparents witnessed in the millions that they talked to G-d. How could they introduce this claim if none of them ever heard of it? In Devarim someplace HAshem says "Is there any religion that had the whole nation talk to G-d?." I think this was a challenge to others to try it, because it can't work. If it would, wouldn't all religions claim it.

quote:

Besides, millions of people witness things every day: from televised magic shows to spiritualism and all that rubbish.

Yes, but all these things are small things and under controlled circumstances. So far David Copperfeld was not able to produce frogs to plauge a whole country. Nor could it be done in a dark room where everyone is holding hands.

<<In Devarim someplace HAshem says "Is there any religion that had the whole nation talk to G-d?." I think this was a challenge to others to try it, because it can't work. If it would, wouldn't all religions claim it.>>

Excellent point. Here is the cite to which you were referring (I think):

Devarim 4:32-36

32. For ask now of the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether there has been any such thing as this great thing is, or has been heard of? [referring to the revelation at Sinai]
33. Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live?
34. Or has God ventured to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35. To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other beside him.
36. From heaven he made you hear his voice, that he might instruct you; and upon earth he showed you his great fire; and you heard his words out of the midst of the fire.

Shabbat Shalom,
Robby

quote:

"The bible is true because it says millions of people witnessed it." "How do you know this?" "The bible told me"

No that is not what I wrote. I wrote it must be true because it is impossible to convince people that they saw something they didn't see And if you argue that generations later someone said this happened to your grandparents, than the question is: if such an amazing thing happened to them, how comes I never heard anything about it?

quote:

Originally posted by Gila:

quote:

"The bible is true because it says millions of people witnessed it." "How do you know this?" "The bible told me"

No that is not what I wrote. I wrote it must be true because it is impossible to convince people that they saw something they didn't see And if you argue that generations later someone said this happened to your grandparents, than the question is: if such an amazing thing happened to them, how comes I never heard anything about it?

Gila Shalom, I dont think you can count on the "Never Heard It" argument. If you look at the Hindu religon and its Baghdava Gita, how many tales there are in that document that all hindus will swear that this is a holy book and scripture to them. How many will you find that say"My great grandfather never hear of such a story even from his great grandfather,but I will tow the line anyways."?
Of course an Israelite growing up generations later will not say anyone is lying because all he knows before he can even walk is "Moshe Kibel Torah Misinai" There were no Document Hypothoseis or any attempted repudiation of the Torah at that time, so why would he believe in any other fact then that the Torah is Kodesh MiHashem???

ilan

Ilan, my argument is this: I can come and tell you that I had a revelation from G-d, if I am charismatic enough you might beleive me. However, charismatic as I may be, if I told you 'you witnessed this revelation' you will not believe me. I can not convince someone that something that didn't happen to him, happened!

Similarly, if I say that your grandfather was a close friend of Moshe you might beleive me. But can I convince you that your grandfather was at this amazing revelation, not only him but the whole nation, you will wonder, and rightly so, if it is true how comes nobody has ever heard of it until I come along and tell you?

Furthermore the Torah states that no nation will ever claim that they had a national relevation. If I did make the national relevation up, I would not write such a thing, would I? Because if I can get away with making it up, so can others. And to date no other religion claims that they had a national relevation.

Josephus wrote:

quote:

there is no real evidence that millions of people witnessed this apart from the bible so you could hardly use it to prove the bible's divine origins. Besides, millions of people witness things every day: from televised magic shows to spiritualism and all that rubbish.

There also is no evidence to the contrary. As for the Divine Origin of our Torah - There is one simple test, one can apply, that of time, and as Avraham Parkinson says:

quote:

There is a very good reason to believe in The Torah's divinity...our(Jews) survival! Despite all those over the centuries who have tried to destroy us we are still a strong and proud people.

After all few Sacred Writs have withstood several Millenia of rather vicious disbelief, attempts to miscredit and erradicate it, like Torah - nor have many people united bt One Faith withstood the onslaught our People have - surely one must wonder why and how that is possible?!

To believe with perfect faith, isn't that what it's all about in the end? That is after all 'all' we are commanded, right, to believe the Torah is of Divine Origin? No one has asked us to proove beyond any doubt that it is so. Faith is about that which we cannot know with certainty. So if this or that natural phenomenon or this or that logical reasoning from the Sages establishes that platform for each of us, which gives us Faith to believe that which cannot be proven, that is well and good.
All we can do is hold our Faith and ask the Eternal to grant that same Faith to those who have a hard time embracing it.

Or at least that's what I think.

Dov

quote:
there is no real evidence that millions of people witnessed this apart from the bible so you could hardly use it to prove the bible's divine origins. Besides, millions of people witness things every day: from televised magic shows to spiritualism and all that rubbish.
-------------------------------------

The above mentioned points of mass revelation are a truism pointed out in the Torah as an eternal truth. Ponder the issue and see that it is incomparable.

The source of the Torah's Revelation upon Sinai is not a story of the Bible. It is an event RECORDED in the Bible, but it's reality is the traditions passed on to generations who received the truth from their parents who witnessed it with their eyes. People today are denying the Holocaust upon the same premise. Hashem doesn't need to renew and revamp the truths as they are. In the words of Hillel Hazoken- just as we know that an Aleph is an aleph and a beis is a beis by tradition, so too are all the traditions of the Oral Law. That isn't changed by the longevity of generations onward nor altered by years passing by.

<<there is no real evidence that millions of people witnessed this apart from the bible so you could hardly use it to prove the bible's divine origins.>>

There is not one contemporaneous account of any alternative explanation or denial of the events recorded in the Tirah....not one.

As a matter of fact, it was not until the early 19th century, with the inception of the reform movement, that there was any denial of what transpired at Sinai....and those misguided people were in no position to have any information contrary to what was recorded in the Torah, other than motivated self-interest.

Robby,

First of all, long time no speak!

But on to the discussion. You say that it was not until the early C19 and the Reform movement that there was any denial of the Revelation at Sinai. Not strictly true, but it is a fair approximation. Let us assume that it were true: what does that tell us? That people didn't have the courage to VOICE their lack of faith until that point? That people didn't have the rescources or the education to formulate such an opinion? They had, until that point, been sheltered from any form of external knowledge and learning? It was only very recently that it has become widely accepted that the Solar System is heliocentric; in many respects, the most recent opinion is often the most correct.

Someone mentioned in this thread a while ago that a proof of the Bible's authenticity was the survival of the Jewish people, despite the suffering and persecution of the aforementioned. I put to the author of that sentiment that the more convincing proof would be a complete lack of persecution. If the Jewish people had survived all these years without one incident, that would surely suggest divine intervention. You cannot claim the Holocaust as evidence of God's presence because we werenot exterminated; rather, proof would be that the Holocaust had never happened.

Every nation needs an identity. For the sake of its unity and continuation, it needs to feel that it has history and importance. Those of you familiar with Aristophanes' 'The Birds' will recall how readily the birds accept the news that they are somehow special. Is it so incredible that a wandering group of nomads would at the very least exaggerate an existing story? It would not necessarily, as some seem to be hinting in this thread, happen overnight, these things happen slowly, and rumours become legend become historic fact. I would like to suggest that the Israelites would seize any oppurtunity to give themselves as sense of purpose and 'Chosen-ness' without delving too much into the past to determine the accuracy thereof.

Just throwing out some ideas,

Leiser

<<Let us assume that it were true: what does that tell us? That people didn't have the courage to VOICE their lack of faith until that point? That people didn't have the rescources or the education to formulate such an opinion?>>

....I disagree. What new information could they possibly have encountered, some 3,000+ years AFTER THE FACT? ..."evidence" of the most incredible coverup ever conceived?????

No.

...I submit it was simply motivated self-interest on their part....they felt it was just too hard to be a Jew...and the only way out was denial of the fact of Sinai...i.e., they wanted to be just like everyone else.

<<I put to the author of that sentiment that the more convincing proof would be a complete lack of persecution. If the Jewish people had survived all these years without one incident, that would surely suggest divine intervention>>

Again, I disagree.

The fact that we'rre still here after thousands of years of people trying to exterminate us is overwhelming evidence of divine intervention. We're simply not the biggest baddest guys on the planet....yet [as empires] the Egyptians are gone, the Babylonians are gone, the Greeks are gone, the Romans are gone...etc. Everyone who has tried to exterminate us over the millenia are gone, yet still we persist?

I submit THAT is being a "light unto the nations" ...evidence of Hashem's sovereignty over the earth.

Regards & Shavua tov,
Robby

If I may, I would like to add to this discussion my $0.20. Torah describes honestly everything that our ancestors did, and what Hashem did to them. It does not try to make any of the participants of the historical drama of 3,000+ years ago look better or worse, not in the narrative, not in the Targum, and not in the commentaries. Numerous confirmations of the events described in Torah are being found by the archaeologists. Then, when Torah describes how it was given by G-d to the Israelites, why would it lie about one episode and be truthful about others?