Rav Chaim,

You're welcome; I did not need to stick up for you; you are quite capable of holding your own . The reason I did is I don't like it when a discussion becomes ad hominem: it then leads nowhere. We need to respect each other, to keep ourselves from lashon hara.

Sheri,

Please correct me if I am wrong. I think you expressed your feelings about G-d loving everybody, etc. because you wanted to convince yourself in order to convince your family member to take her Judaism slowly; correct?

Reb Asher,

I wish you had elaborated more on what you meant when you were talking about yichud. My understanding, based on Arye Kaplan's books, is that yichud is the condition of Unity, the highest level of unification with G-d achievable to humans. One has to be prepared for it. It is dangerous. According to the Talmudic story, four men ascended to the Gan Eden, and only one (Akiba) returned unscathed. The other three - one died on the spot; the other went mad; and the third became apostate. Reb Asher, is that what you were referring to?

When I first wrote about the topic I was truly concerned about my friend and was looking for some support. I have received support from some, and I thank you for that. From others only comments on what should be, there is no flexablity. I beleive that G-D is loving and caring regardless of how you beleive in him. Yes, you should try to live by torah and that might be hard for some, but at least they try. There is to much hurt in the world and I had thought that this venue that we are writing on would have been a place that you can say what you feel without being torn apart.
I do love G-D and respect all people. I do also expect that in return. Sometimes you have to be a little more gentile with your words if you want people to listen to them.
Thanks for listening to me.
Sheri

Sheri, you are right as far as the essence of your post is concerned. And I think as long as we don't attack each other personally, we can express our feelings here: it's common sense.

theres a line from my friend who is orthodox , [ whether iagree with him or not that a matter for another discution] " I hold a person who is better in ben adom lechavero and does not do the mitzvios, is better then a person who does all the mitzvos and does not act kindly to his fellow man. " quote from a friend of mine . My take on it Why did G-d give us so many mitzvos so that everyone can be meritous. Hopefully everyone strives to be an orthodox jew if not as long as they believe in G-d and try and be good there still somewhat ok in my book.

If people are orthodox or not as long as they are good people and do right by everyone that is what counts. You do not have to be orthodox for G-D to be in you life, just a good person. I think if we took less time judging people and more time to get to know them wow what a world it would be.
Just a thought!!!

although i believe in what you say there still is a verse that says " what does G-d want from you just to keep the mitzvos"

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If people are orthodox or not as long as they are good people and do right by everyone that is what counts

Doing right by everyone - i think therein lies the problem. Not everyone agrees what the right thing to do is. we can't please everyone.

to take the argument to the extreme: hitler thought the right thing was to exterminate all non-aryans.

So who decides what the right thing to do is?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gila,

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to take the argument to the extreme: hitler thought the right thing was to exterminate all non-aryans.

Yes, but it was not right by everyone in Germany - before the extermination of the undesirables and dissidents...

That is my point - not everyone agrees - so how can a person do right by everyone? For example the war in iraq. There are those that think it was a good thing to do and some that think it was a terrible thing. So who do we listen to? Who decides what the right thing to do is?

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So who do we listen to? Who decides what the right thing to do is?

Good point. I don't know. When the Second Temple was built, it was decided that the Jews/Israelites who had remained in Judea/Israel had adopted the pagan practices of the Canaanites and really were Samaritans. Just prior to and following the destruction of the Second Temple, the Perushim (Pharisees) decided that the Temple priests, while indeed Kohanim, were performing the Temple rituals without sufficient devotion (kavvanah) and therefore their interpretation of the Law was wrong. Prior to that, another sect of Kohanim had separated into Essenes. Among the Perushim, there were at least two groups, Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel, and each considered themselves the only true followers of the Torah. What we have today is an even bigger mess, with all the variations on the theme of Judaism. The easiest thing is to take the approach of formal logic and say that everyone is right, as long as they are consistent in their interpretations. But that would be revolting to those - in each denomination of Judaism: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist alike - whose approach is "my way or highway".

So in short, I don't know either. But I think that whatever brings a person closer to G-d, whatever makes a person do the mitzvoth and live by the Law of Torah - is the right thing for this person. And I also think that it is extremely dangerous to jump into observance eyes closed.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

Hi, Sheri. I have not had time to read ALL the postings on this topic, so please forgive me if I repeat something already said or don't take into account a point made later.

You and the woman's husband both admit that this woman is "acting strange." Most people who are Orthodox Jews do not act strange; they simply act orthodox. Someone who has recently become orthodox should act contented, not confused. Perhaps the woman's husband sees the negative changes and feels that Judaism is a cult that messes up people's minds. No wonder he does not want to convert! I agree with the person who suggested that you check out this woman's synagogue and rabbi. Perhaps it IS a "non-kosher" set-up. On the other hand, perhaps everything at the synagogue is fine and the woman is mentally unstable. Either way, it would be good for the husband to independently research Judaism to see what is INTENDED to become of it. If he sees that following Judaism makes a woman a better woman, wife, and mother, and that it strengthens families, he may change his mind.

How to get the husband to do this? Perhaps you could approach him with very much the same tone I have. Let him know that you have some of the same concerns about his wife that he does. Also let him know that following Judaism is not supposed to make a person act this way. Suggest that if he researches Judaism and confronts her with Judaism, that her behavior will change for the better. Also, you should compliment him on allowing her to follow her heart. Keep it all positive and nonconfrontational. If you come at him as "the Jew attacking the Gentile," that will only serve to further alienate him from his wife's religion.

Paulette,

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Also let him know that following Judaism is not supposed to make a person act this way. Suggest that if he researches Judaism and confronts her with Judaism, that her behavior will change for the better. Also, you should compliment him on allowing her to follow her heart. Keep it all positive and nonconfrontational. Suggest that if he researches Judaism and confronts her with Judaism, that her behavior will change for the better.

Excellent point!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

In regards to the last several posts. She is doing fine. Her family is behind her all of the way. They are becomeing one. All is good. This is just my opinion, you do not have to be orthodox to be close to G-D. He love you regardless.

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She is doing fine. Her family is behind her all of the way. They are becomeing one. All is good.

Baruch Hashem!

first, my apologies for not replying for a while.

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Originally posted by Alex:
The easiest thing is to take the approach of formal logic and say that everyone is right, as long as they are consistent in their interpretations.

While it may be convenient and politically correct to say that every1 is right, is this true? Again, to take the argument to the extreme, i think we can safely say Hitler was consistent in his interpretations but was he right? (rhetorical question )

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I think that whatever brings a person closer to G-d, whatever makes a person do the mitzvoth and live by the Law of Torah - is the right thing for this person.

So are you saying that the Torah is our objective guide, and that is who we should listen to?

good to hear sherri that they are doing well.

Gila,

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first, my apologies for not replying for a while.

No problem; really...

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While it may be convenient and politically correct to say that every1 is right, is this true?

No, it is not politically correct. And not convenient either. However, as no human being can see the face of Hashem, no human being can see the Truth. As such, no one can tell who is right and who is not.

The majority ruling is the closest approximation to separating the right from the wrong, but again, it is based on the preception that the decision is made by the majority of righteous persons who are conscientious enough to try to approximate truth and not their own convenience. Otherwise, truth will be hidden behind whatever is convenient ot the majority.

I remember reading a midrash that the reason that instead of the commandment never to lie there is a commandment to always keep away from deception is just that. To quote Sir Bernard Shaw, "All generalizations are false. Including this one."

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Again, to take the argument to the extreme, i think we can safely say Hitler was consistent in his interpretations but was he right? (rhetorical question )

Actually, Hitler was one of the most INconsistent men in history.

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So are you saying that the Torah is our objective guide, and that is who we should listen to?

Yes. Ultimately, the Torah - written and oral - is our objective guide.

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However, as no human being can see the face of Hashem, no human being can see the Truth. As such, no one can tell who is right and who is not.

we don't need to see the face of Hashem to see the Truth, he has given us the truth - the torah

Gila,

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we don't need to see the face of Hashem to see the Truth, he has given us the truth - the torah

Yes, but "Torah has many faces". Wouldn't you agree that the truth I see may be the same as the truth you see - or they may be complimentary, or they may be so different that we may even wonder if we are talking about the same Parshah; right?

Again, what comes to mind is the episode described in the Talmud about two Rabbis arguing over a Torah commandment, and finally, the voice of Hashem from Heaven proclaimed that both of the Rabbis were right.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,