Are there any Shadchanim, that are members here, have any input to this important topic?

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Originally posted by sam-:

quote:

Originally posted by Gila:
Shadchanim are notorious for being dishonest. And while nobody likes being lied to and deceived, many people are married today precisely because the shadchanim lied to them!

And, this probably accounts for a large percentage of divorces too.

sam- you bought up a valid point, but just to clarify I was discussing a different genre of lies, the type of lies that are not vital to a happy marriage, such as when a 30 year old becomes 26, or when someone who is barely making a living has a huge lump sum to offer the couple...

I assume you're talking about the type of lies when information such as a debilitating illness or someone's abusive personality is witheld. Of course these lies are totally wrong and I can think of no justification for it.

I'm talking about all kinds of lies. Both what you, Gila, are going on, and what you think I'm going on.

There is a concept in the Gemorah as a "mekach to'as" where the buyer makes a purchase thinking it is one thing and finds out to be another. Therefore, since Shadchanim are known to do so, shouldn't there be a "panel of Judges" that "judge" these "match makers" to make sure that they do their job according to Halacha?

As a person who tries to arrange for shidduchim I don't pass on war stories and tales about someone unless I feel it's absolutely necessary for people to know. Then I ask a shaila first. As far as unreasonable expectations go some of the women have lists that include tall, (never short), professional, very educated, black hat, kippa seruga, yeshivishe, modern, in between, well to do, between ages 23 and 26, etc. Many of these items have nothing to do with what makes a stable decent marriage. They narrow the list of available men greatly. If there is limited flexibility these women stay single. The men have their lists including height, prettiness (a very subjective criterion), money, dress size (I'm not kidding), etc. and will wait until they find such a person who may not want them. I've had men wake up at age 47 plus and decide they want a family. Too late. The under 40 women are not interested in them any more. The Rabbanim I've heard speak about this including Rabbi Yisrael Reisman and Rabbi Goldwasser say that what people should be looking for are middos tovos, yiras shamayim and what kind of a parent the other person will be. Sounds like wise advice to me. There obviously has to be some attraction too but looks shouldn't be the main criterion. They don't always last.

SamK

Sam K, welcome to the Global Yeshiva.

Glad to hear someone who is a shadchan that has some wise words to share to all those that have crazy ideals that don't amount to anything. All those items listed is equal to fools gold. May Hashem open the eyes of all those singles who have those unfortunately wrong notions of what makes for a proper shidduch.

What about all those shadchanim who do pass on what is loshon hara, what can individuals who have suffered by these people, do for themself?

Sam K,
I would agree with you in most of what you say, but I think the women have longer lists than the men. For example, the list you just made for the women includes a man who spends 24 hrs a day learning Torah, 24 hrs a day on his profession and being goyishly educated besides being tall and all the rest of it. Men like this are very few and far between regardless of how you try to accommodate such a list. Whereas men's expectations are basic and attainable. Good looking?; most Jewish women are pretty. Height?; most Jewish men are taller than Jewish women. While you say men over 40 are no longer desirable to women under 40, well, most shadchan will tell you that women 38 and 39 are the hardest to place. After 40 they will be dealing with a different demographic of men. The kind of men they don't want anyway. So for women during their 30s they can be picky because men in their 30's may still want them, after 40 it becomes the men's turn to be picky. In all this, no one is getting married. Yiddishkeit has gotten very screwed up because of the goyish values..

quote:

I'm talking about all kinds of lies. Both what you, Gila, are going on, and what you think I'm going on.

There is a concept in the Gemorah as a "mekach to'as" where the buyer makes a purchase thinking it is one thing and finds out to be another.

I know that Poskim give some room to give a better impression of the person as long as it's not going to make a difference in the Shidduch.(By one Shadchin I made him go to get a P'sak from one of the Gedoilei Haposkim if he's allowed to leave my hight as what I originally thaught it was (it ended up to be a little shorter) that I didn't feel conf. leaving which he didn't want to change it. The Godol Paskined that he didn't have to change it (I didn't end up marrying her anyways.)

But for an example, didn't Hillel in Shabbos 30a gave misleading info. to Ger canidates to set them on the right track, which eventually they were very grateful for him.

In the six perek of Kesuvos there is a concept of raising the assessment of utensils that are brought into the marriage (and written in Kasuva) to a fifth more in order that it should give an impression that she's giving more (and those days nothing was final until the Kesuvah was settled.)

Also, we see at the end of Bava Basra that a cosigner for a Kesuvah doesn't need to honor his commitment, since he realy didn't mean it and only agreed only to help the Mitzvah of making the Shidduch go through.

So there is incorporated in the process to make a better impression than that's really there in order to help them get married. (I would imagine the P'shat, just like the Geiruim, that the end result of getting married is so much benifited for them than what they'll lose for these petty things. Similar to that in Chelek when a king said to a Tana (I don't have my S'farim on me) that Hashem is a robber since he stole the "side" from Odom. His daughter answered him with a Mashul that we must prosecute robbers that stole our silver utensils and left gold utensils, with the king answered "Halivai such robbers come every day.")

Mekach Toas for these small things are only when he's Mikadeish "Al Minas that she doesn't have these things"

Sam;

The idea of a heksher for shadchanim is EXCELLENT! Kudos to you! (goyish expression...sorry)

I thought of another possible solution to the shidduch "crisis". Why not put the Mekubalim to work and create golem to order. Is a golem a Jew? Women who are so picky can order the golem to their exact specifications. Men can also do the same. The shidduch crisis will be over.

I came across a web site today called "End the Madness" all about Shidduchim. It's at EndThe Madness

Of particular interest is the Shadchan Code.

And just think, they can have a husband that won't talk back when they do all the talking!

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
And just think, they can have a husband that won't talk back when they do all the talking!

what?
that's a problem for some husband's??

when sombody is talking excessively you can take advantage of the opportunity to recite tehillim in your head. then admit that the other person is absolutely correct. since you agree with the tehillim that you were reciting you did not lie.

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
I came across a web site today called "End the Madness" all about Shidduchim. It's at EndThe Madness

Of particular interest is the Shadchan Code.

The "Shadchan Code" webpage can be found here: http://www.endthemadness.org/shadchan/ShadchanCode.html

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Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Sam;

The idea of a heksher for shadchanim is EXCELLENT! Kudos to you! (goyish expression...sorry)

Thank you! Now some Rabbonim need to be contacted....

Sam,

If someone knows any rabbonim at the Star-k heksher, they may be able to help. They already have some kind of shidduch program. That would be a good start. They could standardize it and issue their heksher for shadchanim. What do you think?

They can certify golem as being kosher too, if need be.

I'd like to see some prominent kashrus organization provide digital certificates of hechsher to web site or web page content, with or without graphics, such that a proxy server could be programmed to look for such hechshers before displaying content.

Please see Baltimore's Where What When of October 1999 for a little more detail, or message me with interest, and I can share more details about how such a system would work.

For example one person's community standard might be that the news coverage of the olympics about 10 years ago when the young lady said a prayer before taking her 3rd vault after breaking a leg, and then making a good landing on both legs...

Some say the story was a Kiddush Hashem. Others might say that picture of the young lady in her gymnast outfit was not tznius, and thus the text was okay but not the picture.

Others might say that only this story in all of the CNN or whatever web site is approved, and others might say that the intent of the news site is good and give a site-wide hechsher.

I could then ask my rav for guidance in programming my local proxy server to my community's standard, and my family could more freely browse web sites.

The digital hechshers should be collected just like various award images displayed on a home page, or reachable at /hechshers.txt off the home domain name, or centrally stored at some tertiary web site.

If anyone can help empower an army of Cyborspace Mashgichim with a banner name and respected rabbinic leader I can pull out the old specifications for the proxy server and restart that project.

So, Rob, you would like a shidduch to be made between you and someone who would be interested in the project of yours?

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Sam,

If someone knows any rabbonim at the Star-k heksher, they may be able to help. They already have some kind of shidduch program. That would be a good start. They could standardize it and issue their heksher for shadchanim. What do you think?

I heard something about this program, that a certain monetary amount is awarded to the person who made a given successful shidduch. But, I'm saying that Shadchanim should be certified to be a matchmaker that people could go to. Does anyone know anything more about this Star-K Shidduch program?

quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:

when sombody is talking excessively you can take advantage of the opportunity to recite tehillim in your head. then admit that the other person is absolutely correct. since you agree with the tehillim that you were reciting you did not lie.

However, don't you need to show some sign of interest? Wouldn't that be disrespectful to the Tehillim, let alone the person?

quote:

However, don't you need to show some sign of interest? Wouldn't that be disrespectful to the Tehillim, let alone the person?

Sam;
I think this was said in the context of a golem made to order. I think you can be that way with your golem.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:

quote:

Originally posted by MK Fink:

when sombody is talking excessively you can take advantage of the opportunity to recite tehillim in your head. then admit that the other person is absolutely correct. since you agree with the tehillim that you were reciting you did not lie.

However, don't you need to show some sign of interest? Wouldn't that be disrespectful to the Tehillim, let alone the person?

MK Fink specifically said "somebody", so apparently that is not someone who is a golem. Unless, he's hinting at that if one's significant other IS a golem?