First, if your husband has a set of Mishna B'rurah, it already has Shulchon Orech Orech Chaim, since its written on it.

What I was referring to from that quote from OC, besides the regular Issur of Moshav Leitzim for any D'var Chulin, but the more harsher sin of "Cheshek" romances, which the SO really goes on how terrible it is. Whatever Heter there may be for reading novels and history these days (whatever they may be) something that has romance in it is a lot worse and should be avoided at all costs.

Thank you for your reply. My husband does have the Mishna Brurah, but he also has a separate Shulchan Orech Yoreh De'ah - so I was lookiing for something separate.
So, what if the romance is incidental to the plot? (this is out of curiousity for me, more than for my son). In Harry Potter, the romance is incidental - as far as I can tell. Before I 'assured' it, I read the book - so i would know exactly what was going on; as many of the kids in our community read these books. Frankly, I'm rather surprised that the boys in our community read them. these books are in my son's school library, and while I'm pretty sure they aren't in the other boys' schools libraries in town, those boys who attend the other schools most definitely read them - and mamash have gone to see the movies as well. My son attends a more moderate school (the girls are housed in the same building as the boys, for example).

My children have read all the Harry Potter books, I have seen them and I have not found anything objectionable or inapproptiate in them.
All childrens books should be as innocent as these are.

Rabbi Kacev, can you elaborate please? and secondly, why don't the issues raised bother you? in particular the ones brought up about the Orech Chaim. Do you also feel that your children would discuss these books in school? does your children's school keep them in the library?
and off topic, would you take a look at my other thread about fairies? Many thanks!

Rivkah, As far as the problem mentioned by the Shulchan Aruch in regard to romance, I find it has no relevance here. Discussions of boy -girl relationships in these books are quite negligible and innocent. It would hadly fall into the category of a "romance" novel.

In general I find that the book stresses the traits of standing up for one's morals, generosity, loyalty to friends and persevering in the face of adversity. If only all novels had these attributes!

Quote "Discussions of boy -girl relationships in these books are quite negligible and innocent"

So, all the "snogging" that was reported going on in the 6th book is OK for your children? things that are spelled out what Orthodox couples only do behind closed doors, i wouldn't recommend reading to kids.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Quote "Discussions of boy -girl relationships in these books are quite negligible and innocent"

So, all the "snogging" that was reported going on in the 6th book is OK for your children? things that are spelled out what Orthodox couples only do behind closed doors, i wouldn't recommend reading to kids.

I have no idea what "snogging" is and why it should be done behind closed doors

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

Quote "I have no idea what "snogging" is and why it should be done behind closed doors"

In America it's called "necking". But if you did read the book, you would have read about quite a bit of "snogging" going on. It looks like that Rowling wants to make a major part of her ending is a love triangle (or maybe an octagon.) It seems that she's writing them more graphically. My wife read it, and that is why she would not let my children. She doesn't just scan a few pages to approve of a book (Nichnas V'Yoitzie, Bodek Chad Oy Trai) for my children, she reads it cover to cover.

so... do you suppose the shoresh for snogging is SNG - for instance to snuggle?

One can of course take upon oneself any chumrahs they want in regard to their children, however I Have read all the books and halachikally there are no problems with it, so I have no problems with my children reading it.

Quote "Have read all the books and halachikally there are no problems with it, so I have no problems with my children reading it."

Though you read all the books, which is beyond me how someone could read the books and miss all the references of "snogging", I find it hard to believe someone would say there is no Hallachic problem. Would you also not object to your children watching a video where boys and girl, holding each other in their hands, are kissing each other? If you would, then why reading a book that would covey such vivid images in the mind, is OK?

This is why I use the Geder of what we consider immodest enough that we wouldn't do with our spouses in public would be considered immodest to read, just like to watch, and would be considered as D'vrai Cheshek.

How about the "OU" creating a "book department" that puts a stamp on a book that it deems to be "kosher"?

quote:

Originally posted by Gilad:
There is an interesting article on the OU Web Siteregarding Harry Potter. In the article Rabbi Abramowitz argues that the series is useful as a metaphor.
Of course, J.K. Rowling didn't have this in mind, but you can learn some important Jewish values from the lessons in the story. Take one example,

quote:

Harry is Jewish. His parents died so that he might survive and carry on their legacy. Voldemort isn’t an evil wizard, but he does represent the forces of evil. He is Egyptian slavery. He is the Syrian-Greeks. He is Haman. He is the Roman persecution. He is the Spanish Inquisition. He is pogroms and Crusades and the Holocaust and the Intifada. He thought he had destroyed the Potter family, but you know what? They survived in Harry, much the same way the Jewish people lives on in you.

.

Literature is meant to be read between the lines. I think we are better off guiding our children how to read these works (which they are drawn to anyway) rather than having them read them "at a friends house" without our guidance. This is not to say that all literature is acceptable (it is not) but maybe we need to consider what we are banning before we assume everything is assur.

I don't care for this approach. I too, have been asked by my children as to the appropriateness of this content. We likewise decided against it and the children stand by the decision now that they have been told what it contains (that is to say, sorcery specifically).

The reason I don't care for the above quoted response is because that reasoning is (to my mind) adultrous. It could and would be used for justifying the reading/studying of ANYTHING. You can ALWAYS read between the lines, and bend metaphors to suit your purposes. The xtians do it all the time, to justify their anti-Semitic "bible". I am an English major working on my PhD in English and writing, and believe me, I KNOW about reading between the lines. But there is a great difference between making analogies which point us back to Torah and drawing analogous lines between Ha Tov and Ha Rah to justify tip-toeing over lines clearly etched for our protection. If sorcery is an abomination, then it is an abomination. Why allow our children's minds to be corrupted with its influences neatly packaged in charming displays of false power? We have the author of power, indeed power itself. Let our children (and ourselves) explore THAT. If their minds and mouths are not dully satisfied with Torah's mysteries and miracles--it is our own faults for providing HollyWood-driven writers with a gap to fill. My girls won't touch those books--they call them treyfe, (and I never told them that). "Out of the mouths of babes..."
I won't judge those who do allow them. But as for me and my house...

Sam--great idea!

Why would one want to read fiction anyway? By nature fiction is a lie. Why read lies when so much truth is readily available?

A historical fiction, or an hypothetical untrue story can have value if it instructs a good moral behavior or illustrates a canonical legal point, or results in a clearer vision of historical perspective.

Here are two responses.

Gemara Bava Metzia starts with a discussion of a mishna discussing the facts of a hypothetical case where two people come into Beis Din to resolve a dispute about which one of them should own a found lost ownerless tallis, where each one claims the other found it first, and thus owns all of it.

Whether or not such a case ever happened, interesting legal reasoning can be learned from it.

It would seem that unless this particular mishna were had an accurate description of an accurate case that you might label it a lie. To which I reply that such a lie can be a canonical simplification of a significant legal point.

And there is probably good use for historical fiction novels. One such novel I can think of is called "The book of Rachel" that traces a particular gem through many generations of a Jewish family through centuries of antisemitism.

Whether or not the facts are true, the novel illustrates many aspects of life in these times, particularly for Jews.

So again simply to open our mind's eye to visualizing what it was like to live in the times of our ancestors has tremendous value for visual learners.

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
Sam--great idea!

Well, look at how many different Kosher symbols for food are out there (OU Star-K etc.)! And if it would be for books too, I can easily see what would happen to our Jewish bookstores! (Oy vey)

quote:

And if it would be for books too

Sounds as if you are describing something like I designed about 10 years ago, following the news coverage of the gymnast who vaulted on a broken ankle after praying...

There was a particular article on a sports news web site with picture.

Some would say that the text of the article was a Kiddush Hashem and kosher to read, and that the incidental picture of the gymnast in her liatard is not a problem. Others would say that the picture is immodest and the article cannot be read.

From this I recognized that community standards, and the standards set by one's rabbi, and the standards set by parents for their children, can all be implemented in a policy-based web proxy as a filter!

Just like my community has standards for which kashrus symbols we trust, and which other foods I might have specific knowledge to trust despite being outside of that set of symbols, and even some foods with reliable hechshers but which might rely on a leniency I do not wish to utilize... in software this is easy to automate...

I proposed that we secure the endorsement of the plan by respected wise leaders, and then instruct and dispatch Cyborspace Mashgichim to provide digital hechsher "awards" to various web sites for their content, where a the digital hechsher would certify a page, or a subtree, or a whole site, and for various types of content, such as HTML text, images, audio, or movies.

A policy-based filter as a proxy filter would then look for a Cyborspace hechsher from an approved trusted source before presenting the data to the user, using a local policy system for specifying who's Cyborspace hechsher to trust, and any local exceptions.

Since the proxy server could be defeated, just like any Jew has the option to purchase treif food, for adult users to simply present a dialog box pop-up for any uncertified page or content, and similarly permit the user after seeing the content to provide a recommendation for or against certification to a Cyborspace mashgiach.

These days with instant messaging perhaps there could even be a team of such mashgichim ready to process such recommendations in real time, and check a file's appropriateness on the fly before the user would have to override it... certainly a parent would not mind being in that position for their children, if only we had the occasion to catch such opportunities in real life!

Once the system is in place, the hypothetical OU bookstore (and others) could provide a database by ISBN number, similar to Amazon.com's databases, which could be referenced by any Jewish bookstore.

I'm often thought about using an instant check system to automate kashrus alerts by computer using the UPC bar code... both at the supermarket checkout line (to give consumers who want it a warning if they are purchasing any items subject to alerts, or lacking an approved hechsher), and when removing something from a pantry to start cooking.

Boruch Hashe we have such technologies entrusted to our generation to use!

I think this is a great idea. I would love to help out if you ever do implement it! As to the many hechshers, well that is true, and not all of them can be trusted, bu tso long as you know which ones you CAN trust, then there is not a problem. I for one find them indespensable in my life, as I would hardly know all the things to look for in the ingredients, with all of their moxy-ploxy-partially hydrogenated-antisorbate-monsosodium-glutemate-endoplasmicreticulum-red#9 ingredients! It has ventured upon the ridiculous! We eat more chemicals than food now! No wonder my grandma was a vegetarian! I think it would be wonderful to not have to half -read a book in a bookstore to find out if it is kosher reading and just be able to look for a mark on the cover.

However, there is one problem, that is, with putting a hechsher on a book that is different then by putting a hechsher for food items. By food one doesn't have to ingest the food to decide if it is Kosher or not. The mashgiach has to know what ingredients etc. are in the food that is of question and how it's made and more, but does not require ingesting the food.

With books on the other hand, you don't have the ability to simply know the ingredients. It requires absorption of the material contained inside the book in order to put on a label that it's kosher or not. As the well known saying goes "You can't judge a book by its cover". And who would want to go all the way in reading a book from cover to cover and find that it is not kosher, so that a label can be affixed on it?