Swordfish lose their scales in later life! Does that mean they aren't kosher? So do sturgeon!

That is correct; neither swordfish nor sturgeon are kosher.

Wow. I have never had either, but there was a party we were invited to that was serving swordfish steaks! I will have to call my friend and tell her--she clearly didn't know either! Why did we not know this? That is scary.

I believe that the conservative movement holds that they are acceptable, thus leaving confusion in their wake.

That must be why. Thankyou, RIvkaleah. My friend IS a Conservative. That must be why she served it. Well, you know what? SHe KNOWS I keep kosher according to the Progressive Orthodoxy. She had an obligation to warn me. I would have done the same for her were the roles reversed. What if I had eaten it!?

Two things:
1. your friend may not have known that there was a difference

2. What is 'Progressive Orthodoxy'?

Progressive just means that we are not like Ultra-Orthodoxy who do things like super filter their water for fear of tiny microbes in the water that might not be kosher. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, only we are not careful to that degree. Also, women are permitted to study Talmud if they so wish, whereas that is not always the case in Ultra-Orthodox homes. Here is a cut and paste from Davening Primer's website which discusses one example of this:

In the summer of 2004, a controversy arose in New York City over the presence of copepods (tiny crustaceans) in the city water supply. While some authorities hold that these creatures are microscopic and therefore negligible, others note that they are almost the size of a small insect, such as a gnat, and far larger than a bacterium or other single-celled creature; and in fact can be detected by the naked eye. As of this writing a definitive ruling has not been produced as to whether copepods are kosher, but many families have begun using filters on their drinking and cooking water supply.

We don't concern ourselves about this. Probably because we struggle so to make sure all we eat is kosher and we have to directly import foods in for the most part due to being so far from community, that we don't have the luxury of worrying about copepods. We don't even have a kosher restaurant of grcery store for two hours away,a nd even the one that carries a few kosher foods isn't really a kosher food store, they simply have some items which are kosher. ALso there are some who avoid certain spices for fear of some unkosher exposure, or something, and I rarely worry about my spices as most of them are fresh anyway, and the few that aren't are organic, so I don't worry so much about them. I f I hear anything alarming I may have to start checking them as well. Anyway, I don't know if that helps, but there it is. To my mind, the difference is negligable, but to the Neturei Kartas I am sure I am a horrible person.

Well since this isn't the Beit Medreseh, I will say this as simply as possible but if you want pages and pages of sources, I would be happy to reply.

1. Swordfish is kosher. The debate is whether the swordfish mentioned in the Rishonim (Jewish Rabbis of the 10th to 15th century, considered to have more authority than later generations) is the swordfish we identify today. Today all have to consider it not kosher.
2. Sturgeon is kosher in the sense that Jews ate it for centuries under the guidance of their rabbis. A lot of confusion resulted from the life cycle of the sturgeon and the differences in Sturgeon in Western Europe which is different from the Sturgeon found in the black sea. There arose a controversy on exactly what is meant by a scale that comes off in the 18th century. Today all authorities have to consider it not kosher.
3. The Jews have always drunk water with bugs in it. I can cite you sources from the Talmud and especially the Rokeach (12th century) who permits it in no uncertain terms. A number of Rabbis point out we should not declare something forbidden which Jews have always permitted but then there are obviously many who don't.
4. All water in the US is filtered to prevent cryptosporum and giardia except one or two places like New York. So it wouldn't be a problem in Texas. We do not filter the water in Israel and this long running dispute between the Min. of Health and the Water Company.
5. The last few years have been a bumper crop for chumras. They have come up with new proscriptions for water, milk, meat, wigs and are working on bread and chickens.

6. Personally I think they should forbid air on pesach because it is full of chamzon.
(Hebrew for oxygen which is the same root as Chametz. Oxys is latin for vinegar or acidic and it was thought the oxygen could only be made from acids.)

quote:

Originally posted by Rivkaleah:
I believe that the conservative movement holds that they are acceptable, thus leaving confusion in their wake.

Confusion and the cause of many sins too.

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
Well since this isn't the Beit Medreseh, I will say this as simply as possible but if you want pages and pages of sources, I would be happy to reply.

What are the hebrew words for each of these fish you mention and what are the hebrew comparisons to the fish mentioned in the Chumash?

The bible does not list kosher fish or unkosher fish. It only gives the two necessary characteristics.

The Jews of France in the Tosephot called it Sturgeon (in Hebrew letters). The Jews of Spain in the 14th century called it Barbuta.

Swordfish is דג חרב .

From my notes:

Both Rabbi Tam (France 12th century) and the Ramban (Spain 13th century) approved the use of a fish called esturgeon (Shimshah Btzadakah, 1742 Venice, YD 14). In order to prove that esturgeon was the common sturgeon, Acipenser Sturio, R. Landau used a book on fish written by a Jewish physician from Jewish community of Berlin. From his description, this book was Allgemeine Naturgeschichte Der Fische by Marcus Eliazer Bloch (1723-1799), a Jewish physician and ichthyologist associated with the Haskalah movement. R. Landau was particularly impressed with the list of names given by Bloch for sturgeon in different languages e.g. esturgeon (Fr.), storione (It.); porcelleto (young sturgeon, It.). The book by Bloch is still reprinted today, albeit more for its artistic depictions than its scientific interest. R. Landau also uses the book to prove that the sterlet is Acipenser ruthenus based on size and picture. This would appear to be the first time a modern natural history textbook is cited in a responsa. However he was not alone in using such sources as Landau’s contemporary, R. Y. Lipshultz quoted Die Urwelt by H.F. Link in his commentary on the Mishneh (Shore A, 1997).

quote:

Originally posted by laurence shore:
The bible does not list kosher fish or unkosher fish. It only gives the two necessary characteristics.

Right, my mistake, thanks for the correction.

quote:

The Jews have always drunk water with bugs in it.

Ha-Ha!

Yocheved,

From my understanding of this issues is that, there are many Halachic sins [I think like 6 aveiros] for eating one bug. Therefore, if there are bugs in the water that are able to be seen in the water, it would be very problematic and forbidden to drink it. However, if it is not able to be seen with the naked eye, then it is not a problem to drink the water.

A similar example is when walking in the street. There is the possibility that there are ants crawling on the ground, if one notices the ants while walking, one should walk around it. As it says that "Whoever is merciful will receive mercy, for it is written "He will be merciful and compassionate to you and multiply you" [Devarim 13:18]” [Hilchot Avadim 9:8]

However, one is not obligated to keep his head looking down on the ground to make sure one does not kill any ants.

The prohibition is only for what the naked eye sees naturally.

Sam--
That is wonderful! Thankyou for clariftying why that has been such an issue in N.Y. I never have understood it. I knew (of course) that nearly all bugs ( and essentially ALL bugs--due to identification problems) are forbidden. But honestly, I thought tiny crustaceans that were only visible based on whether you had incredibly good eyesight were not a concern. Evidently was wrong. I did not know about the six sins, unless youa re talking about the listed prohibitions (negative commands) among the 613.

Regardless, that is great info., and I appreciate it.

As much as we emphasize the importance of not eating bugs and that one is over thirty six proscriptions and it is a serious concern for every kosher consumer, it applies to insects, crustacia, etc. which move out of their natural environment. This is no law against incidently consuming bugs which are inside their natural environment and do not leave it.

For example:
Although non-kosher seafood and tolaim (worms) found in the stomachs of kosher fish are prohibited (See Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 83:10), the stomachs of the fish are removed when they are processed. Tolaim found in the flesh of the fish, or between the skin and flesh of the fish are permitted. Tolaim found in these areas are born inside the fish, and do not have the prohibited status of sheretz hayam (Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 84:16, Shach 43).

It is important to note that in some cases, water containing aquatic micro-fauna is permitted for consumption by Halacha. This is determined by several factors, including:
• Whether or not the organisms came into existence in water contained by vessels, cisterns, wells or still-water enclosures, and other factors (See Talmud Bavli: Chullin 67a, and Shulchan Aruch: Yoreh De’ah: 84:1,2 with commentaries);
• The visibility of the organism to the unaided eye;
• The frequency in which the organisms appear in the water from the tap.

As far as not stepping on insects or killing them when they are a bother, the idea that one should not do this is Kabbalistic (his mercy is over all his beings) and can be consider something for elite mystics to worry about and not your average Jew who has enough things to worry about.

The original discussion was about kosher fish, and my question is about fish. My son, who fishes alot, said he caught a halibut and halibut aren't kosher because there are no scales. I always thought Halibut was kosher?

Obviously halibut is kosher. Who ever heard of somebody outlawing flounder. Stop this child before he causes major damage. Like Rav Vosner says in one of his shutim. Don't even mention it to someone who would be dumb enough to listen to you.

No, apparently it is not obvious that they are kosher to the naked eye. I have never seen a live Halibut before, I have only seen them cut up in the stores. I did some research on the internet and it said that halibut have small scales that are embedded in the skin. I don't know, do they descale them before they eat them? That must be the reason my son thought they weren't kosher, in comparison to some other fish he caught before.