Dear Paulette,

quote:

Originally posted by Paulette:
1) It sounds like you're saying the whole concept of an afterlife is based on meditations based on interpretations, which doesn't sound too convincing.

I said that the concept of afterlife was based on meditations on Ezekiel's visions, which were not interpretations of anything other than his prophetic visions. If you read the Rambam (Maimonides), in the Guide for the Perplexed, he talks about prophecy / Nevu'ah. Rambam explains that it is a very special state of mind, in which the prophet links into the Yikhud / Unity with G-d and sees and hears what Hashem presents to him through visual, auditory, and/or other perceptions.

No, it doesn't sound too convincing, the way you read what I wrote... Sorry. Which is why it is best to concentrate on this life and what we accomplish in it than on afterlife. Whatever happens after we are dead, we will be remembered by what we did before it, and our lifetime is but a short period of time during which we get to make all the difference - or not.

quote:

2) You say you can practice only what you believe in. That goes against my belief of a true religion being Absolute Truth.

I am sorry, Paulette, but you are off the mark here. First, can you practice what you don't believe in? Second, I explained in my post - sorry if I did not explain all the way - that there is not enough life time left for me to learn and understand all the Mitzvoth the way Orthodox Rabbis understand them: I started at an age when most yeshiva kids already have their Semichoth (ordinations).

I cannot do things I don't understand. And the fact that King Solomon understood all Commandments except one (about the Red Heifer) tells me that Torah is intellectually comprehensible, but it may take a lot of time. As I learn more, I commit myself to observing the Commandments I have learned and understood - and to learning more of them.

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Once WE have to decide how much of our religion is believable or not, the focus is on PEOPLE rather than G-D and becomes something other than a religion.

Now I understand why you were off the mark on my post. I perceive my life in Judaism as a PROCESS. It is not static for me. You seem to be under impression that I am stuck in one position, but I am not. I visualize myself as a snail crawling up to the top of a mountain. It may take my whole life and still not get me there. Or I may get there. I do not know. But I am going up.

quote:

How can you worship something YOU have created?

Do I, really? I don't think so.

Alex

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

Alex - Thank you for clarifying that. Now I believe I DO understand: When you don't observe a commandment, it's only because you don't as yet understand it; not because you don't agree with it. You assume that if you did fully understand it, you would agree with it. Is this right?

If I AM right as to what you believe, and you are sure you would agree with all the commandments if you understood them (presumably because you assume anything G-d would command would be right), why not simply follow the commandments without understanding? If you truly believe in G-d and his infallibility, why would you not follow all his commandments, with or without understanding? (While "blindly" observing the commandments, I could still certainly see continuing to seek understanding.)

This is for anybody familiar with Global Yeshiva technical workings:

I just went to "I Owe You" and saw the latest post. I wanted to see if there were other posts before that, but could not go back further than one post. I'm guessing that only a certain number of posts or space is allowed, and then the first bunch are removed. I was hoping to be able to review past posts as I gain more knowledge, because sometimes something recently posted can "click" with something I remember reading earlier. Is there a way to access early posts on any topic? (If not, I'll just have to remember to print out anything that might later be of interest.) Thanks.

I need to make an apology! I wrote in an earlier post that this site does not allow women to post on the Torah site, but I just did! The first time I tried to, I was not allowed and was told I could only write in the women's issues section, so I assumed it was because I am a woman. NOW I believe I was not allowed to post there because I was new. (Either that or, somehow, this recent post slipped through your automatic censor!) Nevertheless, I just read a post from someone named Lisa who complained about not being able to post on certain other sites. I don't understand this. If the purpose of the Global Yeshiva is LEARNING, then why would you deny anyone the right to ask a question on any topic? How can we learn without asking questions, and how can we ask questions if we are not allowed to post?

quote:

Originally posted by Paulette:
Alex - Thank you for clarifying that. Now I believe I DO understand: When you don't observe a commandment, it's only because you don't as yet understand it; not because you don't agree with it. You assume that if you did fully understand it, you would agree with it. Is this right?

I think so.

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If I AM right as to what you believe, and you are sure you would agree with all the commandments if you understood them (presumably because you assume anything G-d would command would be right), why not simply follow the commandments without understanding?

Why did Jacob need to grapple with G-d? if he already knew Torah?

quote:

If you truly believe in G-d and his infallibility, why would you not follow all his commandments, with or without understanding? (While "blindly" observing the commandments, I could still certainly see continuing to seek understanding.)

Because I was raised in a society where ideology was demanding blind faith, and I fled from such society. That's why I have to understand before I do.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

That's right. I remember you writing something about coming from a Communist background. I do understand how your instinct is now not to follow blindly. Although...Communism was invented by Man, and Judaism by G-d. Doesn't that make a difference to you?

quote:

Originally posted by Paulette:
That's right. I remember you writing something about coming from a Communist background. I do understand how your instinct is now not to follow blindly. Although...Communism was invented by Man, and Judaism by G-d. Doesn't that make a difference to you?

No, I am simply coming from the worst possible experiment and the world's biggest and ugliest failure to build communism - the Soviet Union. The ideas of Communism were nothing but Marx's interpretation of what he had heard as a child from his grandfather the Rabbi about Messianic Times. It is still a valid idea: equality; full appreciation of everyone's contribution to the society; peace in the world; universal education; accessible health care; etc. (I am not a Commie...) Too bad its practical implementation persistently turned into his interpretation of what he had heard from his parents - converted Lutherans - about Apocalypse, wherever it was attempted ...

Anyhow, for me, understanding does not necessarily mean questioning. I question anything that comes from a human (gets me into troulbe at work more often that I'd like...)

For many Mitzvoth, I do not even think there is anything to question, but there is a lot to understand. Other Mitzvoth - I do question the ways of performing them. I probably would be much happier if I were doing without asking why and what for.

Even though the Israelites said at Mt. Sinai, "All that G-d has spoken, we will do, and we will hear" (Mishpatim: Exodus 24:7). This thread is not the right place to discuss Torah, but to me, it has more than one meaning, as do most of the verses of Torah. Yes, there is the primary meaning derived from here that Judaism is a religion of glorification of G-d's Name through daily action. But we must not forget that doing without waiting to hear may have been why the Israelites decided to build the Golden Calf to begin with: they were anxious, and Moses was still not coming back...

It really is like the chicken and egg problem: which came first? The idea is to start going and to continue learning, not to do without hearing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

quote:

Responses to my initial post fell into two categories: trying to prove to my intellect that there is a G-d, and suggesting that following the mitzvahs would bring the truth to me. So far, the first has not helped. I still think the concept of G-d is too good to be true, and don't see anything that convinces me it is true.

This is what Rav Wasserman the great talmud of the Choftz Chaim wrote on the subject in Likutei Mamarim V Michtavim) Non-Jews are required to keep the basic seven mitzvos and they receive punishment for not keeping them. The non-Jew (who does not keep the seven mitvos) will complain and make what seems a reasonable claim, 'how was I supposed to know that I was required to keep these mitzvos? However, if you reflect on the issue you will find that belief that G-d created the world is self evident to all intelligent people. There is no need for profound philosophical analysis to understand this. As the Chovas HaLevavos says 'if a person suddenly spilled ink on a blank piece of paper there is no way he would expect a coherent essay to appear on the page...'

So this raises a rather perplexing question-how can profound and brilliant philosophers conclude that the world is an accident? The resolution of this riddle is found in our Holy Torah which reveals all that is concealed. We find a prohibition for a judge to take a bribe. The amount that constitutes a bribe is the value of a couple cents. ... Therefore, the foundations of faith are obviously true to anyone who is sane. However, his rational assessment-like that of the judge-only exists if he has not been bribed. This means in our case that he is entirely free from the desires for the unrestricted access to the pleasures of this physical world. We see then that the source of heresy and perverse intellectual beliefs is not due to a breakdown of the mind per se. His failure to see the obvious is because he has been blinded because of his fear of losing what he views as his indispensable pleasures..."
Translation into English by Daniel Eidensohn

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

quote:

Originally posted by Paulette:
This is for anybody familiar with Global Yeshiva technical workings:

I just went to "I Owe You" and saw the latest post. I wanted to see if there were other posts before that, but could not go back further than one post. I'm guessing that only a certain number of posts or space is allowed, and then the first bunch are removed. I was hoping to be able to review past posts as I gain more knowledge, because sometimes something recently posted can "click" with something I remember reading earlier. Is there a way to access early posts on any topic? (If not, I'll just have to remember to print out anything that might later be of interest.) Thanks.

You should be able to see all posts on a topic. Some topics have more than one page. If you cannot find a post, go to a previous page. (On the top and bottom of each topic it says Page 1 2 etc)

quote:

Originally posted by dkbengel:

PS Please forgive spelling/grammer errors in this post; my Spell checker is not working this morning. C

Just wondering how could your spell checker decide whether or not to work? Suggestion: for lengthy postings copy and paste the quote into Microsoft Word (or any similar program) and from there copy what you write into the quote box.

Paulette: we must not forget that one has free will also- just because you may feel that G-d reads our minds and knows all, we still have the ability to choose what we will do- but yes, G-d still knows what we will choose- but there is no "interference" on his part. its confusing but faith is all we have inthe end!