For those who are not familiar with the situation, many yeshivot ketanot do not accept children who have some sort of learning problem. They only accept perfect children. I just saw a letter to the editor in HaModiah (for the uninitiated, the newspaper of Agudah Yisrael, a Cheredi organization) which address this. The writer pointed out that in addition to worrying about where the children in Gush Katif or New Orleans will learn next year, we should also worry about all of those jewish children who are not accepted to yeshivot ketanuot because they aren't perfect.

Incidently in another paper on the same day, there was an article on how certain yeshivot in Israel do not accept students if their mothers have driving licenses.

Aryeh Shore

And then there are the chareidi Yeshivot Ketanot (in the US, I believe) who won't accept a child if the father is working (i.e. not learning in Kollel). How they expect their fees to be paid is beyond me.

It's very well to put the pressure on institutions to take all kids, and in a utopia you would have that, but in reality, I feel it's unfair criticism. It takes a lot more effort to cater to them, which with limited resources, it's very hard. Besides, it's also hard to teach kids from far ends of the spectrum together. Also, it does hurt the reputation of the school of the caliber of students. If you accept the mediocre to poor students, those are the only ones showing up. The better kids will find a school that would be more exclusive. (As parents, if your kid is good, so you don't want him to hang around only with good kids. If your kid is less than good, you want him to be able to hang around the good kids. It's always a double standard.) Basically, there are problems with placement of mediocre-bad kids, but it's very hard to place blame on schools saying it's their problem to deal with it.

S. Philips writes "And then there are the chareidi Yeshivot Ketanot (in the US, I believe) who won't accept a child if the father is working (i.e. not learning in Kollel). "

This is true, but only half the story. Lakewood, which was once a place for B'nai Torah was recently, because the prices of houses are cheaper than NY, many other types. The Hashkafa of the two, even though they might both be "black hat", are at two ends of the spectrum. The other type is very strong into materialism. I'm told that the place has a whole different look than it did ten years ago. That there is a very strong presence of materialism. Thus to protect what they feel is a infringement to their Hashkafos, they made this rule to insure that there schools would not be influenced by the materialism. My brother who lives in Lakewood, and is working, and is no way a very "right wing black hatter" has concerns of the type of materialism that has creeped into the Yeshiva he's sending his son to and the type of kids that are going there.

There are two issues here
1. When did Jewish education become elitists? On what basis does a school in Israel reject children who have a reading problem? Especially in the states, isn't the purpose to provide jewish education for the jewish people, not to create an educated elite and deny the opportunity to all jews to get the jewish education they wish for their children. Is there a posek out there who says that our schools should only be for perfect children?
2. What is this business of checking the parents, e.g. the parents worked once for a living or the mother has a drivers licence. How about the child? If this has halachic precidence, I can't think of one. Maybe the letter the Rambam wrote the Ger who his rabbi told him to be quiet because he was a ger. The Rambam suggested the Rabbi should be fired.

Ironically, the requirement of never working for a living was originally a ploy for the Askenazim to keep the Sephardic Cheredim out of their schools. Now the Sephardim have adopted it for themselves.

Aryeh Shore

Aryeh, that's terrible. What happened to the concept that all Jews should be educated? This is a surefire way to start losing congregants in the long run. This elitism will bring on assimilation. Also, how do the yeshivot ketanot determine which child is "good enough" for it and which is not? A child at 6 may not yet know how to read Hebrew, but the same child at 10 may already write a Dvar Torah on his own; how can yeshiva predict who is gifted and who is not? All children develop at their own pace. Or is it based on who the parents are? And what's wrong with the father honestly earning his buck/pound/sheckel/euro/yuan/peso outside the Kollel? And why does a child of a licensed driver have to be denied Jewish education?

Let me clarify my position on this. This has nothing to do with elitism. Of course the whole Klal yisrael needs to be taught, but the question is, on whom does this obligation fall on. For instance, a child of three needs to learn his Alef Bais, it's upon us to teach him. If a child goes to a school and they don't let him in, are they to fault? Well, it depends. Let say if the school is an advance Shiur for 23 years old, of course there is no problem not accepting the three years old. This particular school was not designed for the three years old. So, if there are no particular school that you can put the obligation on. That you are the school that needs to educate this particular child. Especially if the school is not designed to educate this particular kid. There are other schools that they can go to that are designed for them. Or, if there is a need, they'll open schools for them. So why is any one school obligated to take on this kid. If there are kids that need schools, why is it not upon yourself as much as anybody else (even those who have schools) to educate this child? So should you quit your jobs and start educating these children?

About the parentage, of course that needs to be put into account. Would you want any child that comes from any home? Of course there are plenty of homes where you would be aghast if their children were in your children's class. For good reasons too. (To give fringe cases, let say the parents are on drugs are involved with crime or are lewd. You wouldn't want their children in your child's class, because of the influence that they bring from home and into the classroom. You wouldn't want your child to be open to such things. Of course it's not the child's fault and he can be an excellent student, but not at your child's expense.) This has nothing to do with the lineage of the person (like the case of the Ger (a better example is Yoma 71b with the story of Shmaya and Avtalyon with the Kohain Gadol) but on the influence of the house. Like the Gemarah in Sukah 56b, what a child says in the street are either heard from his father or mother, so you can bank on what comes out of their mouths will be influenced from the views of the parents.

I'm bringing this that you should at least get a perspective that people can be wary what kids will influence their own kids. Though you might not appreciate what the other doesn't want their kid's being influenced by, that doesn't mean that they don't have a right to be Makpid. If the child comes home and says that his goal in life is to be able to drive a Ferari like his friend's father, who says that this is a very important to them, this is something that many people don't want their kids exposed to. They want their kids to keep with the Hashkafa, to live simply and the greatest thing to achieve for is spiritual growth. Like I said, that there was an mass flocking into the community to whom materialism is very important to, and they don't want their children being influence by that.

Rav Chaim, shalom.

I think I understand your position. However, it is my feeling that a child can never survive the world "out there" without a spine, and the spine I am talking about is the that comes from the family. The child's discernment between what's good and what's bad comed from the family, not from the teacher: after all, we the parents are our children's ultimate teachers. The teacher can only give the child the knowledge, but the mother and father are the ones teaching him/her the true values.

As you know, I have been raised as far outside the Kollel as it gets (in the Soviet Russia), and I am yet to see a child - of any age - whose purpose in life would be to drive a Ferrari.

If your children are being raised in a family of a scholar such as yourself, you have nothing to worry about: it is on you that your children are relying to provide the spiritual values, not even on the school teacher.

Refusing the child education just because his parents are not up to snuff on the number of hours they learn Torah, because they work for a living, is not very wise, in my humble opinion.

Quote "Refusing the child education just because his parents are not up to snuff on the number of hours they learn Torah, because they work for a living, is not very wise, in my humble opinion."

I would like to make clear, that nobody is being refused a Jewish education because his father works. It's just that they can't go into certain schools. There are dozens of other fine schools they could (and they do) put their kids into. Also, the reason why they are not let into those schools are not bec. their father works. It's bec. the influence of the materialism that was introduced in the town from people that didn't fit into the Hashkafa (Jewish viewpoint) of the town. SO the people who have a different viewpoint have schools that are disigned for people of that viewpoint. The others have their schools. In my town there are two schools, both have working people in it. But that doesn't bother me, since the working people in my town are not materialistic. In the school I send to, they are people that share my viewpoint and the kids are raised in a way I approve of, so I'm not afraid of exposing my kids to those kids. The other school has clientele that viewpoints are not the same as mine, so I don't send them there. People who send there tell me that they are careful with whom they let their children to play with, since they don't want them to be influenced by them.

Quote "The child's discernment between what's good and what's bad comed from the family, not from the teacher: after all, we the parents are our children's ultimate teachers. The teacher can only give the child the knowledge, but the mother and father are the ones teaching him/her the true values. "

If only this would be true. Sigh. The teachers are not even my concern, since I would definitely pick a school that have teachers that share my viewpoint. The main problem is peer pressure. I know this is from many instances where children veered from their parents way. Sometimes it's for the good where they find good friends and environment and they grow more spiritual than their parents. But a lot of times, it turns to the worse. In some cases the person becomes more materialistic. Sometimes they get caught in the wrong crowd and completely throw off everything and do other anti-social activities.
So I would be extremely careful who my kids hang around

Quote "As you know, I have been raised as far outside the Kollel as it gets (in the Soviet Russia), and I am yet to see a child - of any age - whose purpose in life would be to drive a Ferrari."

Well, I do. Maybe not the end result is only a Ferari and living in a sewer. But the whole Shebang. Have a big house, wear designer clothing, drive a very nice car. The American dream, in short.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
I would like to make clear, that nobody is being refused a Jewish education because his father works. It's just that they can't go into certain schools. There are dozens of other fine schools they could (and they do) put their kids into.

quote:

And if the working father wants his children to get the best possible Jewish education?

Also, the reason why they are not let into those schools are not bec. their father works. It's bec. the influence of the materialism that was introduced in the town from people that didn't fit into the Hashkafa (Jewish viewpoint) of the town. SO the people who have a different viewpoint have schools that are disigned for people of that viewpoint. The others have their schools. In my town there are two schools, both have working people in it. But that doesn't bother me, since the working people in my town are not materialistic. In the school I send to, they are people that share my viewpoint and the kids are raised in a way I approve of, so I'm not afraid of exposing my kids to those kids. The other school has clientele that viewpoints are not the same as mine, so I don't send them there. People who send there tell me that they are careful with whom they let their children to play with, since they don't want them to be influenced by them.

So what if there is only one yeshiva ketanah in town?

quote:

Quote "The child's discernment between what's good and what's bad comed from the family, not from the teacher: after all, we the parents are our children's ultimate teachers. The teacher can only give the child the knowledge, but the mother and father are the ones teaching him/her the true values. "

If only this would be true. Sigh.

Of course it is true. The family is where the child learns the true values in life. School is a convenient place where children can learn, play, and compare themselves with their peers by competition in learning, sports, etc, but by no means does the school substitute home in the sense of values.

In the mind of a 10-year-old kid, there is no real difference between "My daddy drives a Ferrari" and "My daddy is a world-renown master of Talmud": kids are kids, and they will always show off their daddy's achievements . What is important is that they know that it is being at the top of their personal ladder that counts, and for one the top of the ladder is a Ferrari, for another world recognition, and for a third number of students and listeners. They should know that comparing Ferrari and knowledge is just as pointless as comparing oranges and birds, and this understanding can only come from the family.

quote:

The teachers are not even my concern, since I would definitely pick a school that have teachers that share my viewpoint.

Exactly. If the teacher pays more attention to the kids whose daddy drives a Ferrari than to a "regular" kid, then of course the regular kid will want his children, when he grows up, to be treated as his classmate, and as a result he will want to drive a Ferrari. But if it is a wise teacher who looks at the personal abilities of the child and not at what their parents do - this school will graduate kids value others not by the Ferraris and Armani suits, but by the intelligence and potential.

quote:

The main problem is peer pressure.

Please see above.

quote:

I know this is from many instances where children veered from their parents way. Sometimes it's for the good where they find good friends and environment and they grow more spiritual than their parents. But a lot of times, it turns to the worse. In some cases the person becomes more materialistic.

[quote]Sometimes they get caught in the wrong crowd and completely throw off everything and do other anti-social activities.

I wish it were so simple. Statistics indicate that the percentage of kids who do drugs is very close in the housing projects and in Beverly Hills. Why? Because in both types of places the parents are not apying much attention to their kids. The kids feel abandoned. They desperately want attention, so they turn to drugs, crime, etc.

quote:

Have a big house, wear designer clothing, drive a very nice car. The American dream, in short.

Believe me, there is nothing wrong with wearing designer clothing and driving a nice car, as long as it is not the purpose of life. For me, the American dream is to be able to make sure my children get the best education they qualify for, to work and contribute to the American society, and to be able to help the other Jews.

Sorry; it was a duplicate.

Rav Chaim, I'm going to disagree with you on one point and agree on another.

You write that I would not want my kids to go to a school with kids whose parents do drugs. Those are precisely the children who NEED to be in a good school surrounded by good people who will model good behaviors. Once this child is in the school, he should be given several months to adapt. Then he should be judged on his own merits: if he is a good student exemplifying good values, he stays; otherwise, he goes.

Your own point was that peer pressure many times has more influence than parental pressure. I do agree with you here. Remember that POSITIVE peer pressure exists also!

Alex, I wish with all my heart that what you said about parental influence being most powerful were true. Have you not seen many instances of wonderful parents raising rotten kids? Of siblings raised by the same parents who turn out very different from each other? From what I've observed, it seems that children are born with personalities. Parents definitely influence these personalities, and peers definitely influence these personalities. But not much! In the end, the child observes all, and picks what suits him.

My older daughter is a case in point. For years, I homeschooled her. I taught and modeled good moral values, and taught her about how to please G-d. She always had a difficult personality, though, and it was definitely hard for her to always follow through on my teachings. Nevertheless, she mostly tried.

When she was 12, I sent her to public school. Within months, the most important thing in life to her was designer clothing and jewelry. For the next few years, she made it very clear that material things were much more important than her familiy.

At 15, she became good friends with someone with violent tendencies. Although she criticized this friend's behavior, her own behavior became more violent. She even attacked me on several occasions.

I will say that she also credited the way I raised her with preventing her from being worse! She said that, with a different mother, she might have turned out to do drugs or be promiscuous.

Still, I believe ALL that - good and bad - was part of her inborn personality. She had no strong urges to do drugs or be promiscuous.

At one point, I was part of a web site support group for parents of troubled teenagers. Every story was the same: "I raised my child well! What went wrong???"

And, on the opposite side of the spectrum, I'm sure there are children of thieves, drug addicts, what-have-you, who look at their parents with disgust and plan their whole lives to NOT be like them.

This is why yeshivas should judge children by their own merits.

(By the way, my daughter is 20 now and has calmed way down. She's still very different from me, but we have a good relationship.)

Along this thread, I think that there have been mentioned quite a few scattered elements which are governing the issue.
#1- What type of society are we referring to. Is it a small town with 1-2 day schools which if the child is refused entering, he is cast out to the public school mainstream? Or is it a city which may have quite a few day schools, if not scores, where a specific school cannot say that the responsibility of the child's Torah education lies on them.
#2 What is the true class level? Some classes have an advanced level of teaching, where the student's academic pace is high gear. It isn't fair for someone who can't keep up to be thrown out, yet it likewise isn't fair [and can be VERY hampering for advanced society to have to wait for the mediocre, where the slack in pace can cause them to lose interest] that the mediocre can slow down the advancement rate of a class who are going on a fast learning pace.
#3- In a sitaution where a child may need extra curricular attention, there should be a framework for such children, where they can compensate by the xtra hours. It doesn't have to necessarily affect their social contacts with those on a higher echelon.A society is comprised of all types and compatability isn't always generated on an identical IQ level.
#4- There exists an age old debate how certain societies should function. One side of the coin is to have an advanced level of pace, whether it be service of Hashem, Torah learning, etc.,where those of the advanced level can prosper to the maximum, even though the mediocre will fall wayside. The other side may say that it is worth to forfeit the advancement of the elite in order to compensate for the mediocre and allow them to advance on a general level alongside the rest.
#5- in the end, each person has his trials of choice. We can only hope to try to succeed in inbuing the right values in their proper perspective in order to allow the child to make the objective choice. We must be good role models, be patient, treat each child with the personal and individual needs they require and be there for them always. And behind the curtains, be mispallel a lot that we should merit to see successful results. Hopefully, if we do the maximum, we have prepared them in the right way.As the Brisker Rav Z"L said of Elul [in response to the question-why do we see an arousement for the better among the non-religious around the High Holidays period?]- since WE are better, than they are also better.Identical is the parent/child spectrum.

The curricula and teachers are the same quality. The
difference is the clientele. So his children will have
friends like themselves, so I don't see a problem there. If
there is one school in town, of course they'll accept all
(there wouldn't even be a push for this for various
reasons.) We're talking about a city with over 20 schools
with 15000-20000 children (my estimation.) with schools
opening every year.

I also have to strongly disagree with your assessment that
the family is the biggest transmission of values. This is
not what I observe. Usually they're not cookie cut out of
their parents. More cases than not I see the child grow up
not the same way as their parents. The ones that do make
sure that their kids are always in an environment that
reinforces those values. They don't all come from a
dysfunctual family. People that are exposed to certain
lifestyles might find them luring and will follow it if they
desire.

I also would like to argue on what you wrote "What is
important is that they know that it is being at the top of
their personal ladder that counts"
I don't think that's important at all. The important thing
is to do what is correct, and to a torah Jew is to be
learning Torah and doing Mitzvos as much as possible and not
"and for one the top of the ladder is a Ferrari." This would
not be important in by book. It's not just, whatever you do
be the best at. You got to do the best and most important
thing.

I would like to also argue on "Believe me, there is nothing
wrong with wearing designer clothing and driving a nice car,
as long as it is not the purpose of life." Well then, what
is the purpose of life and how does it not interfere. I
already wrote in the post that to the Torah Jew is to be
learning Torah and doing Mitzvos as much as possible.
Believe me, that in order to support these expensive
hobbies, someone would need to spend a lot of money on them.
In order to spend a lot of money, one needs to make a lot of
money. In order to make a lot of money, someone needs to
work very hard a long in order to do that. Time is money,
but the opposite is also true. Money is time, time is Torah.
The more time you need to work to support your expensive
habits, then the less time he has to do the purpose of life.
You are "forsaking eternal life for living for the moment.
(Not a wise trade)

Now making a living is a necessity for our basic needs. But
beyond that, it's luxuries. Now, one man's luxury is another
man's need. This is all due to training and worldview. If
someone would live simply, even if he needs to work, he
wouldn't need to overdo it. Have plenty of time for learning
Torah, can retire early and have enough money to support
himself for the rest of his life living simply and be able
to commit the rest of his life to learning (which a lot of
working people are opting for.) But someone who needs to
work for an extra 20 odd years because he needs to pay off
his debts for all his luxuries, is he not losing focus on
what's his purpose in life.

Paulette:

For the things we agree on, thank you for supporting those
ideas. Glad to hear that your daughter'' a lot better.

About saying that the best thing for the troubled child is
in school, I certainly agree with that. The only problem
it's not the best thing for the rest of the children. The
question is who's going to influence whom? In the example of
the drugs, you can't blame a parent not to want such a child
in their child's class. If one of the good kids get dragged
down from the bad kid and starts taking up drugs, who will
be responsible for that? It's a double edge sword. You need
to help the bad kid, but you can't put the good kids at
risk. I don't think it's upon the school and parent body to
help the bad kid at the expense of the others.

About accepting in Yeshiva on their own merits, it's very
hard if we're talking about 4 or 5 years old. For HS or
higher they consider each child on their merits. but when
they're so young, they don't have their own merit, and
they're at that point preety much only know their families'
values. So, to protect the influences from values that are
not yours, you would want a school who's parent body has the
same values as yourself.

Rav Chaim, sorry I couldn't respond earlier. It's a fascinating discussion, and I apologize if I offended you in any way, shape, or form.

quote:

I also have to strongly disagree with your assessment that
the family is the biggest transmission of values. This is
not what I observe. Usually they're not cookie cut out of
their parents.

Of course they are not cookie cut, but an apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and deep inside they are worried, every day, every waking hour, "will my parents approve of me?" - even if they do nothing wrong. I know my children are. I am sure you read Sholem-Aleichem's Tevyeh the Dairyman. Did you notice how all of his daughters carry deeply entrenched in them a part of his personality?

Even when we don't directly "raise" our children, we are teaching them - by example, by a hand gesture, bu a turn of a head. We are always there, and they always learn from us. We are the ultimate authority to them, until they learn Torah and become bnei (bnot) mitzvot.

quote:

People that are exposed to certain
lifestyles might find them luring and will follow it if they
desire.

The "IF" is a very big one, Rav Chaim. Our job as parents and educators is to make sure they do NOT desire to follow the lifestyles we don't want for them.

quote:

I also would like to argue on what you wrote "What is
important is that they know that it is being at the top of
their personal ladder that counts"
I don't think that's important at all. The important thing
is to do what is correct, and to a torah Jew is to be
learning Torah and doing Mitzvos as much as possible and not
"and for one the top of the ladder is a Ferrari." This would
not be important in by book.

I know it's not, nor is it important in my book. But for some shallow people it is. I know a guy (one of my coworkers) who is still, 15 years later, saying with a deep regret that he had to sell his Viper when he got his first baby. So, for him it's more important than other things - he has some serious issues with inferiority complex, and that's how he is coping; so my attitude is "let him be, but I will not follow him".

quote:

It's not just, whatever you do
be the best at. You got to do the best and most important
thing.

Exactly, and to a Torah Jew the most important thing is to follow the Mitzvos and to learn. To somebody else it may be a Ferrari.

quote:

Believe me, that in order to support these expensive
hobbies, someone would need to spend a lot of money on them.
In order to spend a lot of money, one needs to make a lot of
money. In order to make a lot of money, someone needs to
work very hard a long in order to do that.

In the past decade in California, a lot of people became "suddenly rich" when the technology boom was still here, and the stocks of the companies they worked for would all of a sudden go from 10 cents to 100 dollars a share. They did not work extra hours for that, but it is their honestly earned money. So they "upgraded" their belongings, they gave large donations to charities. They got some expensive hobbies, but they did not become worse human beings, nor did they downgrade Torah in their lives.

quote:

The more time you need to work to support your expensive
habits, then the less time he has to do the purpose of life.
You are "forsaking eternal life for living for the moment.
(Not a wise trade)

I hope it was not personal, Rav Chaim, because I never live for the moment, but I don't want to think of the carrot of having eternal life ahead of me. I try to do mitzvoth because they are for us, for me. Not because of the eternal life I will forefeight if I don't.

quote:

Now, one man's luxury is another man's need. This is all due to training and worldview.

Yes. I don't see us having a disagreement, Rav Chaim. We have the same value system, and we have a good mutual understanding. I just don't think we need to guard our children from other children. We need to trust them: after all, they trust us, and family stands on mutual love, trust, and compassion.

quote:

The "IF" is a very big one, Rav Chaim. Our job as parents and educators is to make sure they do NOT desire to follow the lifestyles we don't want for them.

This , of course, includes protecting them from being exposed to unwanted ideals.

Not necessarily.

It is your personal choice how you do that - by keeping him or her in the greenhouse all his or her life or by explaining what is good and what is bad.

Let me explain my point with a parabola. There are two ways of making sure that the child does not get into the fireplace while there is fire inside: one is to guard the fireplace or not even to burn anything there. The other is to watch the child and when he expresses interest in that funny orange warm thing inside that box - walk with him up to the fireplace and let him get his hand close to the fire, but under your supervision. I guarantee that he will not want to touch the coals. Don't suggest, but if he wants to - let him, but hold his other hand. Then he will learn, under your supervision, a most important lesson - that the fire keeps us warm, but it can hurt.

An interesting article:
http://globalyeshiva.com/judaismlinks/Parenting/index.html

This gets more difficult when dealing with things that take a mature mind to be able to appreciate. It's relatively easy to teach a kid the concept that fire can hurt. One time going to close can teach him that. Try teaching the same kid that too much candy is not good for him. This will not work. All the kid sees is that the candy taste good and there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to stuff myself with it. The only way is to keep the jellybeans out of his reach. Fine ethical and religious behavior is also an acquired taste for mature people. Give an immature kid the chance for gluttony or any other physical pleasures, it would be hard to show him in a way that he'll understand in any meaningful way that it's bad for him. When he matures, he'll appreciate the training that he received. Without the training, it would be hard to achieve it even after he would have the maturity to understand it. So there is an argument, that dealing with behavior that involves maturity, that you shouldn't expose kids that are not holding by such a maturity to such temptations.

Unfortunately the yeshiva admission systems problem is not as clear as stated. If it works in a small Jewish community (sombody mentioned living where ther are 2 yeshivas) that is great. Being a survivor of the admissions "policies" in a large metropolitan community with dozens of yeshivas it is not working.
1. There are no policies, certainly none that anybody can show you.
2. The policy changes depending up who the family is.
3. Yeshiva #1 says other parents would be offended if they took a child without TV in the home and the mother does not drive. Yeshiva #20 says how could we take sombody who does not hold by our minagim (they could not explain what minhagim we don't hold by but they are very concerned about them). Yeshivas 2 - 19 were some variation between the two.
4. My fluent in yiddish, don't know what a TV is, only ever known a charedi life children were denied admission to many yeshivas, cheder, and girls schools because my wife and I are geirim. I thought I was being paranoid but I sent a shaliach (a rebeish einichle that thought I was being paranoid)he came bake to me in shock. I was not being paranoid. Years later we are still trying to digest a menahel from a well none haimish cheder telling the shaliach "we don't do chesed at this yeshiva". Anybody that wants to verify the facts can contact me to get the shaliachs number. I still find it hard to believe that this is not a lie and that I am a sane person hearing insane things.
5. One cheder took some of my children for double tuition (no I am not wealthy). Then the melamed could not keep himself from beating my son (6 years old) to the ground. Not a patch, a beating. Worst of all the cheder has a no pathing policy. But it did not apply to my children. When I called the menahel he stated very calmly "I took your children what else do you want"
6. With every yesivah having a reason for not taking children that I have heard more times than I can count "there a 20 cheder (or yeshivas, or girls schools) why should we take a family like yours.

All of the theoretical talk about why not excepting children would work if if could be applied fairly. I hope that I have illustrated that it is frequently not administered fairly. Worse still is that I am not alone there are many bal tsuvah and ger families in the NY community to which I am referring that are strugling or not making it because of non-acceptance policies. Every Jewish child derserves a Jewish education. Mine get theirs from private tutors (that I really cannot afford)because of our galus imperfections. A"H we should see Geula Shaleimah bimhairah v'yomainu.

I would not have believed most of what you wrote except for my having read an article recently in the Mishpacha magazine written by a South American lady whose (very Frum) family went on Aliyah about her trials and tribulations in getting her children into Chareidi schools. I was amazed at the lies she was told when the schools refused her admission.

What amazed me more is the way she seems to have accepted that in order to get her children a proper Torah education she and her family would have to make changes in their dress, lifestyle etc.