I feel I owe an apology and an explanation to those who took much time to answer my post from several months back. (It was regarding a book I read "proving" the divinity of Jesus, and my own search for the truth.)

I did not have the money to purchase the version of the Torah you recommended, but I took you at your word that other purportedly Jewish versions of the Bible contain misinterpretations. So, Jesus was not divine. But what you presented to me as proofs for the truth of the Jewish religion were not enough for me. I was so despondent, because at least when I was beginning to believe in Jesus I had some hope there was really a G-d, and now I'm back to having almost none. After your comments, my mind was racing with so many thoughts, but also at the same time dulled from the shock of being "without" again. I found myself having the time to go to other websites to discuss less important matters, but feeling (probably mistakenly) that I did not have the time to go back to your web site and explain and try to begin again.

Responses to my initial post fell into two categories: trying to prove to my intellect that there is a G-d, and suggesting that following the mitzvahs would bring the truth to me. So far, the first has not helped. I still think the concept of G-d is too good to be true, and don't see anything that convinces me it is true. As for the second suggestion, I will remind you of what I wrote in my first post: I have taught my three children that there IS a G-d. I want them to have the wonderful feeling I used to have, and I wanted them - while they were young and before they had fully formed consciences - to be good in order to please G-d. I have always followed
G-d's moral teachings, simply because they sat right with my intellect. But the mitzvahs that go farther than simply "being good" - such as keeping kosher, keeping the Sabbath, etc. - I have not followed since losing my faith. If I had no children, I would follow your advice. But what if I do follow your advice and start following all these rituals? The explanation to my children would have to be, "I'm doing this because G-d wants me to." And then, if doing these things for some time did not bring back my faith, my stopping the rituals would mean to my children that either I have no further desire to please G-d, or that I have lost my faith in G-d. The former would cause them to lose respect for me, and the latter would cause them to question their own belief - something I very, very much do not want to happen. And there is no way I could continue to do such things for a lifetime if I honestly did not believe G-d wanted them. So, I guess I'm back to seeking intellectual proofs. If you have the patience or the inclination to try again, please do. If you don't, or if you can't think of another way to get through to me, I will certainly understand.

By the way, I am still praying.

Dear Paulette,
I would like to at least try first to convince you of the existence of G-d (then I would like to prove that Orthodox Judaism is the one religion that would make the most sense.)

From the same author that you read about on Christianity, he wrote another book “A Case for a Creator”. This book he does a much better job of proving scientifically that there must be a G-d. (He does a better job, since it’s easier to prove the truth than falsehoods. It’s also easier to prove from scientific fact than that from hearsay of 2000 years ago of people you don’t know existed in the 1st place.


When you wrote “. I still think the concept of G-d is too good to be true, and don't see anything that convinces me it is true.” You did not try to debunk the proofs, but rather dismiss them. I think it would be better if you would explain why you don’t believe the proof proved the point, to see if you can intellectually debunk the proof or it does have merit. This would be the best and honest way to deal with it.

First and foremost, when you say the concept of G-d is too good to be true the truth is, our lives are too good to be true. One of the biggest questions we must ask ourselves when we get up in the morning “How do I exist?” Since we take our lives for granted, it is easy to ignore our existence as any proof, but if you really think into it our bodies (and practically everything around us) is extremely amazing design and greater than any machine that man made.

Besides lasting longer (how long did your last car last?) it fixes what’s broken. The body has around 10 different systems, which it couldn’t work if it didn’t have even 1 of them, and each one is so intricate and has thousands of different parts to make it run, not to mention the complexity of the DNA themselves, and all of this needed to come together at once or they couldn’t function at all, don’t you think that our bodies are too good to be true? Don’t forget, that scientist cannot make any living beings from scratch just using the raw materials (proteins and amino acids.) For something that accidentally rose by itself, and something we have billions of specimens to see how they are designed, yet with all our bio technology, we’re no closer making a live being from scratch than ever.

This is a good start. I think this would give you some food for thought. It will either convince you, or you have a reason why it doesn’t convince you. If it doesn’t, please write back why it doesn’t so we can discuss it further. If you can’t explain why it doesn’t convince you, it just means you don’t understand your argument, so you should [ponder it further until you can explain it. I think this would make it much more productive.

Thank you for writing.

Your argument is strong, but not entirely convincing. G-d, with all his powers, is so much more complicated than we are. According to your argument, there would have had to be a being much more godlike than G-d to have created G-d!

I will tell you something along the same lines that ALMOST convinced me, some time ago. Believe it or not, it was when my husband and I became intimate for the first time. Not usually a religious experience for most, I would imagine, but it was for me. For some reason, the thought entered my mind that a man and a woman were made perfectly for each other, and that there was no good reason for it. With "survival of the fittest," one would imagine that hermaphrodites would have made out much better. They are certainly more efficient! The physically logical step in evolution would have been hermaphroditic humans. Were we CREATED this way because of a caring G-d who wanted us to not only procreate, but to be HAPPY?

The "miracle" of a man and a woman made to need each other both emotionally and physcially seemed, for a moment, to be proof of G-d's existence. I offered a silent prayer to G-d, thanking Him for creating us this way. Unfortunately, when I had finished my prayer, the thought occurred to me that, according to my religion, G-d was supposed to have heard my prayer. G-d is supposed to be able to read my thoughts - along with the simultaneous thoughts of all the other people on Earth. That is a physically much more miraculous thing than what happens between a man and a woman. And why would He bother to listen to all our thoughts and prayers? It would have to be because He deeply cares about every one of us. That is emotionally much more miraculous that what happens between a man and a woman.

I am a mother of three. The miracle of conception and creating another child was also a time for contemplating the existence of G-d. But again there was something much more miraculous to consider: the existence of heaven. What are two of man's greatest desires? The desire to have someone protecting him - G-d - and the desire to live forever - Heaven. The concepts of G-d and Heaven both could have been created by men who simply wished these things could be. Even G-d's moral commandments could have been written my a man who was tired of all the immorality of the world, and thought that maybe people would act better if they thought a Superior Being was watching them.

That there would be Someone who could read all our minds, who is out there to look after our welfare, who cares how we treat each other, who created a paradise in the sky for after we die - all this is too good to be true, and much more miraculous than even the miraculous coming together of DNA.

The whole idea of religion is a beautiful thing. I have no proof that there is NO G-d. That is why I still have a tiny bit of hope. But until I have proof that there IS one, religion will still be just that to me - an idea.

I have read the author's argument in favor of there being a Creator. It was unconvincing for the reasons stated above. I know that many, many intelligent people - more intelligent than I - believe in G-d. Either they're all wrong, or there's something they're "getting" that I'm not. Of course, I'm hoping it's the latter, but I've never been one to just "go along with the crowd." I need to be PERSONALLY convinced. I appreciate that you are trying.

Dear Paulette,
Your response can be put into 2 parts. The 1st dealt with, though I had a convincing argument in my last post, you still have a question, not on my proof, but on the concept of G-d itself. It’s a good question and I’ll deal with it. The second part is just speculation why someone might want to make up religion. This doesn’t prove it one way or another. There are plenty of reasons why someone wants to believe in G-d and many reasons why someone wants to believe there is no G-d (they don’t like the concept of being responsible to answer to anybody.) You shouldn’t confuse it with a proof. There are many things that can be proven one way or another, even though you have vestige interest that it should be that way (like you have a vestige interest that your roof is not leaking, or else you’ll pay thousands in repairs, yet you can safely say that if you don’t find water on your floors, that your roof is not leaking.)


Your proof is the following “According to your argument, there would have had to be a being much more godlike than G-d to have created G-d.” I’m not sure what this has to do with my argument, but the question is valid. But if you would think of it, the remaining options make even less sense. The 3 options, as I see it (if you have others please right them in):

G-d created the world- which bothers you, then who created G-d

The world just came into being- This of course we know that things do not come from nothing (So forget about design for a moment, just where did matter come from? Did it just appear out of no where? If there is no creater, there should just be void without matter.)

The world was just always. Besides being disproved from the expanding Universe, but you just rejected an idea that things exist by itself for infinity.

These are the 3 possibilities, and none of them fit into scientific explanation, Yet we exist. So there is no scientific explanation to our existence, so something must give, since there is nothing but the above options.

I would suggest that the least of the questions is on the G-d option. The other 2 are completely scientific and deal with our realm. If it doesn’t compute, then it must be wrong. We already know that in our realm, things don’t happen by themselves, so there is no possibility that those options are able to be true. Then we’re left with the G-d option. True it doesn’t compute to us, but since He’s on a different realm and we don’t know much of the supernatural and it does not necessary run with the same rules as ours, so this is the only option that is feasible. To quote Sherlock Holmes, if all other options are proven to be wrong, then the only remaining option, no matter how unlikely, must be true. Thus your point actually proves the existence of G-d rather than disproving it.

Once we’re on the topic, let’s bring up another proof. Evolution is the only theory that would support a non G-d option. Otherwise, how did living beings come to be made? Especially the complicated ones. Yet, the fossil records seem to be missing the “missing links.” Which means, to get from a one cell animal to a bigger simple animal which is next one that is found in the fossils must have been many steps in between, where millions upon millions of such animals must of existed, yet they are not found in the fossil record. This goes for any of the missing steps between any type of jump they claim that it came from one animal to the other. No missing links at all. This would show that they were created in their own species and not evolving from one species to another. There are many proofs disproving evolution, but I brought down one for you to think about.

Dear Paulette, and Rav Chaim,

Please allow me to add to this wonderful discussion another book, or rather series of books, written by Dr. Gerald Schroeder - he's a quantum physicist, has worked in biology, and is a modern Orthodox Jew. The titles of the books are, if I recall them correctly, "Genesis and the Big Bang"; "The Science of G-d" and "The Hidden Face of G-d".

Rav Chaim, you say, "Evolution is the only theory that would support a non G-d option," - actually, it doesn't. There is no proof in the theory of evolution that it evolution is not being driven by a Supreme Intelligence, and even the most belligerent Darwinist cannot scientifically prove that. Even if all the missing links are ever found, it will still not mean that evolution was not driven. What's more, the main principle of evolution is survival of the fittest species. The universally fittest species of land animals (if we are talking about mammals) is the mule. Yet evolution could not produce it: it is sterile.

BTW, as a sidestep, what does Halacha say about farming (producing) and using mules? It is an animal produced by crossiing two different species (a horse and a donkey); so it is not quite kosher...

Dear Rav Chaim,
What I wrote has been misinterpreted. I am NOT trying to disprove the existence of G-d. (No one can do that.) All I was doing was letting you know why typical arguments in favor of there being a G-d (including yours) have not convinced me.

I do not claim to know how the world started. No, it does not bother me to think that G-d might have started the world. (I am bothered because I WANT to believe it but haven't been convinced yet.) But again, your argument does not convince me. "How else could the world have gotten started?", you ask. Well, the world is just a rock. That G-d got started is much more amazing!

Alex saved me from writing what I have heard from others: evolution may or may not be true, but if it is, it may have been caused by G-d.

You are right that I do not scientifically understand a lot of things. G-d may have been around since the "beginning of time," if time can even have had a beginning. The Big Bang, if there was one, may or may not have been caused by G-d. None of this proves or disproves G-d's existence.

I don't even think I'm looking for definite proof. Just more of a likelihood that there is than that there isn't. But I'm beginning to think that such an argument isn't possible. Maybe people either have faith or not - that it is not a matter of proofs - and I have little faith. How sad.

Alex, I will ask for those books at the library. Hopefully they will have some answers that make sense to me. Thank you.
Rav Chaim, thank you again for trying!

Shalom, Paulette. Begging your and the Rabbi's pardon, I would like to share with you an experience that I had that helped me when I was in your position. I, too, found my faith evaporated in the light of science and the obvious flaws in the world. After years of travelling around the world learning about other forms of faitha dn thought and science, I finally came to find my faith in G-d in the un-expected place: In a college Astro-Physics test book.

Understand, I am not trying to convince you of anything. Only, I am truing to impress upon you my own experience. Being accademically (read: extremely logical), I could PROOVE the Big Bang, but I could not PROOVE G-d. This disturbed me. But the TRUTH was the TURTH and what could be done with it? But I discovered something when I started to dig deeper into Astro-Physics and Cosmology (the scientific study of the Universe as a whole). It turns out the most Astro-Physisists do, in fact, believe in G-d (in one form or another) because the MATH of the Big Bang shows of the probability of G-d's existance. See, without getting too complicated, the MATH (G-d's own divine building blocks) can demenstrate the entire process of the Big Bang with one exception: the Beginning of it. It is Mathemetically impossible for the Big Bang to have just happened by accident. The only way the math works is if someone/something "flipped the switch" and started the Big Bang on purpose. Then the math works perfectly. If you have ALOT of time, I can show you these numbers. And that was all I needed. Using the same logic and tools that had led me to question my faith, I found my way back into it.

Now, this addressed my problem of "Is there a G-d?" but it did NOT describe what kind of G-d was out there. So I began looking for modes of thought to describe G-d. That is how I found Judaism. Having discarded Christianity at a very early age due to flaws of logic and easily dis-prooven myths, I found myself reading the writings of the Sages. The "Job" paradox, especially, caught my eye. Soon, it became clear that only Judaism, with it's history of National Revelation and it's striking and stark processes of thought and reason, made sense to me.

Still, could I reconcile my scientific logic with my spiritual faith? The answer is yes. It is perhaps to complicated to decribe here, but I would like to recommend to you a book called 'As a Driven Leaf' by Rabbi Steinberg. If you can not afford to purchase one, please let me know and I will send you my copy. This book deals EXACTLY with what you are going through (and what I have already gone through). Please, don't give up hope. You can loose faith and still find it again, but if you loose Hope then nothing remains.

Please contact me directly if you would like at dkbengel@yahoo.com and I will happy to tell you more about what happened to me. I hope that some of this helps. I wish you all the best things as we approach Pesach. Peace be one you.

L'shalom,
k.

PS Please forgive spelling/grammer errors in this post; my Spell checker is not working this morning. C

Dear Paulette,
It‘s not I who is misunderstanding what you’re saying. I understand perfectly. I have given 2 viable proofs, which you had not begun to answer. The 1st was the argument of design. That how can you explain the complexity of living beings with the complexity of the DNA and all the complex systems that every living being is made up with, which with all our technology we can’t duplicate, yet it came through an accident. If it is so simple that all you need is a few proteins to come together with the right natural conditions, we should be able to make human beings from scratch in the laboratory, at least an ameba. But alas we can’t. You see in living beings great designs, much greater than any man made machine. You wouldn’t say a 747 came out of nowhere would you? Yet the more complicated human being was a group of “lucky accidents” (the favorite catch phrase of atheists who explain phenomena which would be more likely for you to win the lottery 1000 times in a row than that to happen, no matter how many millions of years you give it.) This you did not even get close to answering , so please explain your position

My second proof was my question of the missing link. Of course I know that if evolution would be true it would not disprove G-d, but if evolution is disproved, then G-d is proven. I will repeat it again “if evolution would be true it would not disprove G-d, but if evolution is disproved, then G-d is proven.” So now by throwing a monkey wrench into the theory of evolution (where there are plenty of other questions besides this) even if you ignore your senses of that there is a design that can’t be made by itself, how could it come to being?

This is all after the materialization of matter. Your whole question is from before the materialization of matter? Which is if G-d created all, then what create G-d. I agree this is something beyond our comprehension, but all other options make less sense. This you agree with me, as you wrote “I do not claim to know how the world started.” So how can you have a question against it if you have no alternative explanation. We all know we exist, so one of the impossible things happen (which I wrote in my last post why it’s more logical to say it’s G-d, since the others are physical manners which we know is impossible. See there.) So even if you want to say that this is not conclusive and all possibilities are even for the materialization of matter, you’re still left with the argument of design and the missing links that show there is a G-d, which you would need to deal with. What you wrote “"How else could the world have gotten started?", you ask. Well, the world is just a rock. “ Yeah, rocks materialize out of nothing all the time. Today I was sitting by the table and out of nowhere a 100 pound rock just materialized out of nowhere in the middle of my living room. It was kind of eerie, it was like something out of Star Trek.


So until you answer my 2 proofs (design and missing links), I will be convinced that I had answered the question. Just saying “it doesn’t convince me” does not refute my proofs and would only convince me that you’re not honestly looking for an answer. While were at it, I would like to ask you a 3rd point which I want you to respond to. Let say, for argument sake, it’s impossible to know either way, why wouldn’t you take Paskell’s wager. He said, to believe you’ll receive eternity. If you don’t believe, the most you’ll have is this world. Wouldn’t it be better to live your life like a believer for the possibility of receiving eternity than to not to live that way and end up with (at best) no eternity (or must suffer for eternity?)

Dear DK: Thank you for writing!

I, too, remember my astrophysics professor talking all about the Big Bang theory but then quickly ending with "We can't discuss what caused the Big Bang, because that would get into theology." He did not attempt to get into any of the math and did not discuss it further. I thought it was just an idea of his with no cause, and did not bring it up with him.

I would love to ask you about the math, but it has been over twenty years since I have used Calculus and I'm sure I don't remember any of it. Perhaps you could DESCRIBE the mathematical reasoning without actually using math!?

By the way, has the Big Bang been proven? I know that is the most widely accepted theory, but I didn't know it had been proven. True, though, with the movements of the planets away from one center, that would make sense. Is there anything in Judaism that would try to deny that God created the world by using a Big Bang? I don't suppose so.

When I first lost my faith, it was because my 7th grade teacher taught us about evolution. I thought, "If one thing about the bible isn't true, probably none of it is true and there isn't even any G-d." It was years before I heard anyone suggest that G-d could have caused evolution or the Big Bang. By then, though, I had developed more reasons for not believing.

Sure, G-d could have caused the Big Bang and evolution. But why didn't the bible just come out and say it? Why do we have to stretch our imaginations so much in order to keep believing? Why does so much in the bible reflect thoughts and practices of ancient times (such as attitudes towards women)? Yes, I realize that there are also concepts in the bible that seem to be ahead of their time, such as knowledge that blood can begin to clot after eight days, and that slavery is wrong. But a lot of it still seems like it COULD have been written by someone of the time. (I'm not saying "was," just "could"!)

One of my major stumbling blocks is still the thought that Someone could read all our minds at once. There couldn't be any math to prove that! Or is there? Of course, if someone could describe human powers of thought to an ant, I'm sure the ant wouldn't believe it, either.

Any mathematical thoughts on heaven? (My other major stumbling block.) It is always described as "paradise," but I haven't read the bible since I was a child. IS it actually supposed to be paradise, or simply a place for souls to collect and be with G-d? Does the bible actually mention anything about being able to see your departed loved ones? (I guess the less good heaven is really supposed to be, the more realistic it would seem to me - as opposed to something made up by man.)

DK, I would appreciate it if you would tell me about some of the myths of Christianity, and how you discovered they are just myths. Also, please do try to explain why the Big Bang had to have been caused by G-d. (Well, actually, Rav Chaim may have explained that simply by saying that something cannot be caused by nothing. You don't need to know math to understand that.) So I'll give you a bigger challenge: What could have caused G-d? Or, if he was here from "the beginning," what could have caused the beginning? Maybe THIS is actually my problem: acknowledging that there WAS no beginning and that there was always a G-d. You know, when I look at it THAT way, He seems more plausible!

Still, the fact that there probably was no "beginning" to time still does not point to the existence of G-d. ...Oh, I see. If there was always a bunch of nothingness, and then all of a sudden there was us, something or Someone had to have created it. My only problem here is that Time itself is a miracle, and the existence of ANYTHING - that FIRST ANYTHING is such a miracle, how could that have happened???

Forgive me for rambling. I'm just trying to sort this all out.

Dear Rav Chaim,
(Sorry if this seems out of order, but as I was writing to DK you had posted.)

First of all, I appreciate your sense of humor! You made me laugh, and you made me see you as more of a person. Yes, of course rocks don't materialize out of nowhere. I was just trying to say that gods don't just appear out of nowhere, either. But in my post to DK above, you'll see that I'm beginning to picture G-d as ALWAYS having been there, and that makes more sense to me. (I'm sure it seems obvious to you, but remember that, relgion-wise, I'm a baby.)

I AM a bit offended, though, that because your arguments don't convince me you are certain I am not honestly searching for the truth. I wouldn't be on this board if I weren't honestly searching. And I have some great motives for wanting to know: If the existence of G-d can be proven to me, then I will have the GREAT comfort of knowing there is Someone "up there" with my (and the whole human race's) best interests at heart, that there is someone to hear my prayers, that there is a heaven where I can continue to exist in some form and where I can possibly see my departed relatives and eventually see my children. I think these are pretty good motives!

You say that I should live my life as if I believe so that I can go to heaven. A few comments here: First, I don't think that a person who pretends to believe in order to win a reward from G-d will actually get that reward. Second, I guess my religious education was lacking, because I was taught that if you're GOOD you go to heaven, period. I was taught that GOOD people - Jews, Christians, pagans - would all go to heaven. Not believing in G-d does not make you "ungood." I was also taught that only Christians believed that it was faith alone that would get you into heaven. Please set me straight. Third, I have ALWAYS lived my life following moral laws - whether I believed or not. You don't have to believe in G-d in order to know what is right and what is wrong.

Thank you again for writing. I look forward to hearing what else you may have to say.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulette:

I, too, remember my astrophysics professor talking all about the Big Bang theory but then quickly ending with "We can't discuss what caused the Big Bang, because that would get into theology."

He gave you guys a clue in a sense... - as much as he could without risking his tenure

quote:

He did not attempt to get into any of the math and did not discuss it further. I thought it was just an idea of his with no cause, and did not bring it up with him.

I would love to ask you about the math, but it has been over twenty years since I have used Calculus and I'm sure I don't remember any of it. Perhaps you could DESCRIBE the mathematical reasoning without actually using math!?

If you recall, there is such thing as complex numbers. If you want to depict a complex number, you have to use a 2-dimensional world, a coordinate plane. And you are looking at it from a third dimension. Now imagine that one of these two axes represents our 4-dimensional world (3D space + time). The other then will correspond to the tachionic world - particles moving faster than light, and therefore, they exist in the imaginary (used as the mathematical term from complex numbers theory) 4-dimensional world. Just as you are now looking at the Re-Im coordinate plane, there has to be a third dimension, from which you are looking at it. Similarly, there has to be a third set of 4-dimensional space-time, and it stands to reason that there is an Intelligent Being looking at the two sets of space-time. BTW, if you assume that time in the two dimensions (Re/Im) is the same, then we live in the 11-dimensional world, just as Superstring Theory is predicting...

quote:

By the way, has the Big Bang been proven? I know that is the most widely accepted theory, but I didn't know it had been proven. True, though, with the movements of the planets away from one center, that would make sense. Is there anything in Judaism that would try to deny that God created the world by using a Big Bang? I don't suppose so.

The Big Bang has been proven, as far as I understood from reading Alan Guth's book, "Inflationary Universe"

quote:

When I first lost my faith, it was because my 7th grade teacher taught us about evolution. I thought, "If one thing about the bible isn't true, probably none of it is true and there isn't even any G-d." It was years before I heard anyone suggest that G-d could have caused evolution or the Big Bang. By then, though, I had developed more reasons for not believing.

Your teacher used the same logic as ours did when she said that people walked on the moon and saw no G-d there; so He must not exist in the sky.

quote:

Sure, G-d could have caused the Big Bang and evolution. But why didn't the bible just come out and say it?

Imagine talking to a somebody who lived 2500 years ago about Big Bang. But actually, Nachamnides (the Ramban) did talk about the Big Bang. He described it almost the same way as Alpert-Bethe-Gamov did 800 years later...

quote:

Why do we have to stretch our imaginations so much in order to keep believing?

The easy answer is, to test us. The hard answer is, to stretch our imaginations.

quote:

Why does so much in the bible reflect thoughts and practices of ancient times (such as attitudes towards women)?

I did not see anywhere in the Tanach anything negative about women.

quote:

One of my major stumbling blocks is still the thought that Someone could read all our minds at once. There couldn't be any math to prove that! Or is there? Of course, if someone could describe human powers of thought to an ant, I'm sure the ant wouldn't believe it, either.

See my argument above regarding complex numbers.
As you have all complex numbers of interest in your field of sight, when the Superme Intelligence is looking at this 8-dimesnional world, It (He) sees it all at the same time, too.

quote:

Any mathematical thoughts on heaven? (My other major stumbling block.) It is always described as "paradise," but I haven't read the bible since I was a child. IS it actually supposed to be paradise, or simply a place for souls to collect and be with G-d?

I recommend you read Spinosa's Tractate on Ethics - a very mathematical (but no formulae) work, flowing from definitions to axioms to proposition to proof to corollaries to proposition to proof to... In that work he proves mathematically (geometrically) the Existence and Oneness of G-d and proves mathematically the superiority of His mind. This was NOT the tractate for which he was excommunicated.

quote:

Does the bible actually mention anything about being able to see your departed loved ones? (I guess the less good heaven is really supposed to be, the more realistic it would seem to me - as opposed to something made up by man.)

Yes, it does. It condemns those who call those who are departed.

quote:

Or, if he was here from "the beginning," what could have caused the beginning? Maybe THIS is actually my problem: acknowledging that there WAS no beginning and that there was always a G-d. You know, when I look at it THAT way, He seems more plausible!

He was here before the Beginning, when there was no "here", and no "before", and no "when". I think your problem is with the concepts of time and space. When the material singularity appeared, there was nothing around it. Not even vacuum, because vacuum is a state of space. But all the space was confined to that singularity, "smaller than a seed of mustard", as Nachmanides describes it. Time, too, started when the first event happened, and that was the appearance of that singularity. Time is a measure of separation between the cause and its effect, or The Cause and our world...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

Could somebody please tell me how to respond the way so many of you do - by inserting a quote from someone else's response, then responding to that before moving on to the next quote? (I am guessing the people who do this are not simply retyping.) Thank you!

Shalom again, Paulette:

I would love to discuss this with you on a more in depth level (although, Alex has done a fine jobe explaining some of what I was hinting at). Please FEEL FREE to contact me at dkbengel@yahoo.com. i will gladly share my story with you and answer any questions that I can. I would also like to recommend that you listen to Rav Chaim; many of his points are VERY valid and can be of help. I hope to hear from you soon. Peace be upon you.

L'sholam,
k.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulette:
Could somebody please tell me how to respond the way so many of you do - by inserting a quote from someone else's response, then responding to that before moving on to the next quote? (I am guessing the people who do this are not simply retyping.) Thank you!

There are three icons on the bottom of each post. The one that looks like a folder with a " mark to the right is "reply with quote". Just click it on any post and off you go.

Dear Paullete,
I’m sorry if I offended you, that wasn’t my intention. I wanted to make sure you dealt with the issues I brought up because I think they’re very important for our proofs and they weren’t being addressed I apologize again for any hard feelings.

When you wrote “I don't think that a person who pretends to believe in order to win a reward from G-d will actually get that reward.” I don’t think this is so. If someone did all the proper soul searching and honestly couldn’t come to any conclusion and to them it’s, what we would call, a “Safaik Hashakel” (50-50 chance). So now he has a choice whether he will live his life in a G-dly matter or not. He’ll come up there and prove he was honest and couldn’t prove it, but yet he lived a G-dly life in order to make sure that if there is a G-d he’s keeping all his commandments. Why can’t he receive reward for that.

When you wrote “Second, I guess my religious education was lacking, because I was taught that if you're GOOD you go to heaven, period. I was taught that GOOD people - Jews, Christians, pagans - would all go to heaven. “ In the Jewish religion, there are 613 commandments etc., not only are there commandments that you can’t hurt your fellow person, but there are obligations to G-d. For example, you probably heard of something called Kosher. So, this is the 2 sides. You can ignore the Kosher laws and eat in this world all the cheeseburgers and lobsters you want in this world on the chance there is no next world, or you can keep Kosher (and all the other commandments) for the sake of the reward/punishment in the next world if there is one. This would be Paskel’s wager in Jewish terms.

When you wrote “Sure, G-d could have caused the Big Bang and evolution. But why didn't the bible just come out and say it? Why do we have to stretch our imaginations so much in order to keep believing? Why does so much in the bible reflect thoughts and practices of ancient times” To the Jews, the bible is just the tip of the iceberg. Not only is it not the whole story, it’s only a mere fraction of it. There was given along with it the oral law, which is much longer and complicated. The learning the Bible in it’s “simple sense” is a Christian concept. To the Jews it was always just the rudimentary start of it. There are Medrish and Talmud to explain them, which afterwards the Geonim, rishonim and Achronim (different commentators) to expound on them . So in all, there is a ton of literature to explain the Bible, and one who learns it in the “simple matter” is missing the whole point. For example “Giving an eye for an eye” doesn’t mean you poke out the other’s eye, but rather means compensating for the eye. (There is no “giving” when you take out the eye. If it meant to remove the other’s eye it would say “take an eye for an eye.”) The most obscure Medrish in the Torah (As it says in the Mishna the 2nd chapter of Tractate chagigah) are Masseh Braishis and Masseh Markavah (Creation and Ezekiel’s vision of G-d’s “throne.” Because of the sensitivity of the issues involved, and how easy to make someone who’s not ready for it to go off the straight and narrow if he misinterpreted it, they were careful to only teach it to the most mature minds and accomplished scholars (which I have yet reached in my learnings, let me te,, you, it’s a tall order.) Alex wrote about Nachmanies that talked about the big bang. This was really based on a Medrish (also a piece of talmud in chagigah 2nd Chapter) This is a small glimpse of the Medrish on creation. Even Nachmonidies only wrote partial glimpses to this and also wrote a warning that this part of his commentaries are not for the average readers. So the Jew, when he reads the portion of creation realizes that he’s reading it at a superficial level, and never bothered them if the plain words of the Bible fits in or not because they realized for Millenniums that they don’t have an idea what the real story behind creation is.

When you wrote “One of my major stumbling blocks is still the thought that Someone could read all our minds at once. There couldn't be any math to prove that! Or is there? Of course, if someone could describe human powers of thought to an ant, I'm sure the ant wouldn't believe it, either.” You don’t need to go that far. Imagine you go back in a time machine 300 years and explain to them that you fly in airplanes and you listen to tape recorders and post notes on the internet that someone on the other side of the world could read it in a split second. I think they would lock us in a looney bin .

But even on a more physical level, to give an analogy, if someone made a disk drive, how difficult can it be for him to be able to read what is written on it? Not much. Every thing we think is etched in our brain. Every connection between the cells represents a memory of some kind. That is how we remember, isn’t it? Why would it be too difficult of the programmer of this “computer disk drive” to be able to read the neuron connections to see what we’re thinking. I heard on 60 minutes (I hear it on CBS radio) that someone came out with a machine that is able to detect brainwaves to see how people think. It’s a whole thing to allow it into testimony that if a defendant is shown the scene of the crime, if the brain shows any sign that it’s familiar to him. So even to us, it’s not too off.

The Bible doesn’t talk about heaven really, but the Talmud does, and it says it’s a place of souls.

When it says the begging, it doesn’t mean the begging of G-d’s existence, but rather the begging of this world. If not, how can it say that then G-d created the heaven and the earth. It must have been that G-d was already in existence at that moment. Or else it should of said that HE came into existence then and then created the world.

P.S. Try cut and paste ,it works wonders 

Rav Chaim:

Wonderful! You have really put your finger on the pulse of the situation! I am greatful for your response to Paulette's questions and your expounding on the responses of Alex and Myself. Wonderfully written and reasoned out. Thanks you again for your help. And, Paulette, please take what the Rabbi sayd to heart. There is SOOOO much more than what is written in Torah! And the discovery of those thing is a great adventure! Peace be upon you.
L'shalom
k.

I have quite a few comments/questions for those of you who have recently replied. Please bear with me!

Regarding G-d's ability to read all our minds simultaneously: I understand how G-d could be looking down at us from another dimension and see all at once. However, seeing and hearing are a different matter. I still can't picture hearing and comprhehending the thoughts of hundreds of thousands of people at once. Same with G-d being able to read our disc drives: to even be able to read ONE would be a miracle. He can read hundreds of thousands at once! I know, I know: He's G-D - not like us. But it still seems too good to be true. That's what everyone would want: a Father-figure who can hear and possibly respond to all our desires. Did G-d actually tell us He can do that? (Again, I'm not claiming to know that this is NOT true; I'm just saying that your explanations only go so far in showing me how it could be done. (I know that no one can know exactly how He does it, so again, it's just a matter of faith.)

If, in the beginning, all that existed was something the size of "a seed of mustard," there would have had to be something to define it's outline. Also, a seed of mustard is still SOMETHING. How did that something get here? I still say, the creation of the galaxy - with its physical happening something I can understand - is not as much of a miracle as the existance of G-d, whose abilities cannot be explained by any physical laws. Again, a matter of faith.

What are the Jewish views on women that seem so ancient that they could have been written by people? One is reflected by this very board. When I wanted to put an entry under "Torah Study," I was told that that is a forum for men only. Why would G-d not want women to truly understand Him and his laws? Ancient PEOPLE thought that women were either incapable of intellectual reasoning or should be kept from knowledge so as to remain "in their place." From the years of 10 to 12, I wanted to be a rabbi! I was told right off the bat that that could not happen. I knew the entire Saturday morning service by heart, and certainly BELIEVED with all my heart, and yet my little brother was allowed to lead the junior congregation while I was not. I don't understand that. I don't understand why we must cover our hair. It can no longer be a matter of modesty, since we are allowed to wear wigs that can be more beautiful than our own hair. We cannot show elbows - which don't seem very sexy to me, by the way. Both of these ancient practices simply serve to make us very hot in summer - not more modest. Modesty comes from within. I choose not to wear revealing outfits because that is giving a suggestion to the world that I dont' want to suggest to anyone but my husband. However, showing my hair or my elbows is not giving a suggestion to anyone! I like to engage in vigorous exercise in all seasons. If I had to keep myself wrapped up like that I would probably faint from heat exhaustion. Even more inexplicable to me are the ritual baths. Believe me, women don't need to be TOLD to bathe themselves thoroughly once a month - more often than that, of course. Why should we have to go through the inconvenience and embarrassment of bathing in public? Why should we not be allowed to be intimate with our husbands around that time? It seems like an ancient edict designed to help populate the world with Jews. Yes, I have read an explanation that the reason for this last one (and for keeping kosher) is that it's "moral calisthenics": If we practice controlling some of these basic impulses, then we will be more likely to control our impulses to be bad in ways that count. I disagree. You're either a moral person, or you're not. I believe that most people are. We make the right moral decisions. If we already do this, why do we need calisthenics?

In answer to my question about being able to be reunited with your loved ones in heaven, I was told "the Bible condemns those who call those who are departed." Perhaps you misunderstood my question. I would not be "calling" anyone. I would already be physically dead. Or are you saying that, regardless, if you are in heaven and you want to be with the soul of someone you loved, you will be condemned? Doesn't sound like much of a heaven to me.

If the Torah is "just the tip of the iceberg" and we must also consider things such as oral law, Medrish, and Talmud, I have a question. Weren't the rest of these acknowledged to be created by people? Why should I feel obligated to follow what fellow people have decreed? This brings me to the point that disturbed me most from the recent replies. You wrote that we MUST follow G-d's 613 laws in order to go to heaven. Well, I'll tell you something. I would follow all 613 laws even NOT to go to heaven, if I believed that G-d wanted me to - and if I believed in the goodness and justness of G-d. If what you are saying is true - that G-d will deny access to heaven to the millions of good people who don't follow 613 laws - then even if I believed in G-d, I would not follow. Why should I bother with the inconveniences for a G-d I don't respect, to be in heaven with a G-d I don't respect? I am really shocked. I thought that reserving heaven only for believers was a purely Christian concept. It was the concept I hated the most. To me, a god is not a G-d unless He is perfect. To me it is the height of imperfection to be unjust. You have just REALLY turned me off to Judaism. Unless perhaps there is something to conservative or reform Judaism. But I doubt it. I don't see how PEOPLE can decide which of G-d's laws to follow or not. Also, they must have interpreted G-d's word very differently, because they obviously believe they will go to heaven simply for being good. What's the good of a religion if it can be so easily misinterpreted? Religion must be Absolute Truth.

The last thing I must comment on is the people saying "Listen to Rav Chaim! He knows what he's talking about!" Obviously, Alex and DK are extremely intelligent people. That they completely agree with Rav Chaim - another intelligent person - has me thinking that, perhaps, there is just something I am not getting. Your "follow the 613 or else" has me almost totally not believing, but the fact that three intelligent people (plus of course the millions of other observant Jews and even the millions of observant people of other religions) still believe in G-d makes me think. And, as I have said before, there is no way to prove that there is NO G-d. So I'll still hope. But I don't even want to HOPE for a G-d such as one you have described.