I use electric Shabbos candles that I brought from New York City when I moved West. Each Shabbos I bless and light these candles, after which, I place them in my kitchen window until Shabbos ends. I was told by my Rabbi when I was young that using electric Shabbos lights was wrong. Does anyone else feel that using such Shabbos lights is wrong?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

Halachakily, one should not use electric lights unless there is no other choice.

I believe that that the Halacha is that one should use electric candles only in circumstances where one is prevented from using ordinary wax or oil candles, for instance when a person is in hospital.

I note that you move the lights after you have switched them on and said the Blessing. I trust that you do not have in mind to accept Shabbos by lighting them, as otherwise they could not be moved. This is not a problem for a man (who usually accepts Shabbos in the Friday Night Service) but for a woman this would be a problem.

Shalom,

I was also told by a Rabbi once that one should only use electric candles when there isn't other options.

regards,
David Aron

Shalom,
Thank you everyone for the most helpful input. I will use traditional candles in the future.
G-d Bless,
Avi

If one is able to afford olive oil instead of wax, then that is what should be used, since that is much more preferable to use then wax, when lighting the candelabra before Shabbos.

I think that one might have to ask their LOR before starting oil since it is a "move up" and whether they can go back to wax in the future. As it states that "one goes up in holiness and not down" since switching from wax to oil it is a step up.

I am not aware of any source that oil is preferable to wax candles

it's actually a Machaber that olive oil is Mitzvah min Hamuvchar 264:6. See Mb 23 that it comes before wax candles. But see further that his candles (which weren't real wax) are as good as oil. This could apply to our "wax" candles since there light is also very clear and there is no suspicion of tipping them to get more light.see there

SAm
It wouldn't be a problem of Maylin B'kodesh, but rather of a Neder, like doing any Chumrah once. The Eitzah is to make a B'li Neder beforehand.

I prepared this answer on the original question and I never had a chance to post it. So here is my opportunity.

This involves the sticky question: what is electricity? Is it a type of fire or not.

The other question involves how did the Rabbis enact Shabbos candles? Did they enact that you should have light, which the lamp would be good enough. Or did they enact to have a flame, and that is the Mitzvah and with nothing else you can't do the Mitzvah?

The simple meaning of the Bracha "to kindle a flame of Shabbos" would seem to connote the second way. That the action of the Mitzvah is kindling a flame, which might not apply by turning on an electric lamp.

Now I know Rav Moshe Feinstein ruled that you shouldn't light with electricity. I know there are other authorities that permit it. At the end, I cannot prohibit it, since there are those that permit it because of the reasons I wrote above. Yet, since one of the greatest Poskim of the last generation said not to, I cannot recommend it. It would be better to light with candles and to fulfil the Mitzvah according to all. It should also remain on your table, because it's mainly to add light to your meals. (It's not like Chanuka that you need to show it to the streets.)

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
It should also remain on your table, because it's mainly to add light to your meals. (It's not like Chanuka that you need to show it to the streets.)

It must BE on the table one's eating on or can it be on a table next to it? And what if one has a fan or AC that one would want to have on an having the fan on would be a problem to light the candles there?

I believe it is sufficient if the candles are in a place where one can get benefit from them.

They should definitely not be placed where they are liable to blow out (a drafty door or the AC you quote).

If one has a fan on then one should be sure that the candles are in a place in which the fan will blow them out would be the choice place to put them.

I have not seen people light the shabbos candle on the tabble but rather to the size. the rational of this is one which i learn first hand in which when the time came to clean the table and put a new covering on we couldn't due to the fact that though the candle went out the candle holder was forbiden to be move.

since then and before then it has been my custom even more so now to have them in a place off to the side where there will be no thought of moving them. in most homes this place is used just for lighting the shabbat candles every shabbat.

As well i have heard this in passing i am not sure of the rational behind this matter though. however the light we use be it candles or a lamp we are not to use for say to read book by or other things of that nature.

quote:

Originally posted by Mack K:
I have not seen people light the shabbos candle on the tabble but rather to the size. the rational of this is one which i learn first hand in which when the time came to clean the table and put a new covering on we couldn't due to the fact that though the candle went out the candle holder was forbiden to be move.

I've seen people light on the table and in the same room on a separate table. Lighting on the table adds a dimension of beauty that is just not there when lighting on the side. The candles is supposed to add peace and harmony to the Shabbos table, and most important Shalom Bayis between a husband and his wife, which is not there as much i'd think, when it is on the side.

I know from personal experience when the candles are lit on the table behind me there is always that worry that I'll bump into it and people saying to be careful. But, on the table, you just don't have that.

quote:

since then and before then it has been my custom even more so now to have them in a place off to the side where there will be no thought of moving them. in most homes this place is used just for lighting the shabbat candles every shabbat.

It is a good idea, but one must be careful of little kids or accidental knocking into the candles which can create a hazardous situation G-d forbid.

quote:

As well i have heard this in passing i am not sure of the rational behind this matter though. however the light we use be it candles or a lamp we are not to use for say to read book by or other things of that nature.

The rational, if I remember correctly from memory, is that one might come to tilt the wick to help create a better light. That is because in the time of the Mishnah and Gemorrah there was no electricity and the candles were the main source of light. And tilting the wick is forbidden on Shabbos

May I mention that "how one >feels<" is not the issue. The issue is, what is the halacha?
With all respect,
Shabbat shalom!

Yehoshua Kehati

Yehoshua, can you please be more specific in what you are commenting on? Thanks

When Iwas a Bochur in Yeshiva (in Lucerne,Switzerland) the Yeshiva moved to a new building.The Rosh Hayeshiva ,Rav Yitchok Kopelman Shlita, instructed us to lite Shabbos light with electricity .(Flourescent light would not be good; it's not called "Aish")

I think at the time (it goes back 37 years) I heard in the name of R' Chaim Ozer Grodzenski ZT"L that one can also make borei me'orei ha'aish on electric light. It's in halacha considered fire.

Did Rabbi Kopelman allow you to light Chanuka Menorah with an electric Menorah? According to your explanation that it's fire, he should of allowed that.

I respect Rav Chaim for his wisdom, however, he should not extrapolate from Shabbat electricty being fire, to allow an electric menorah on Chanuka. Years ago, I had learned together with my ex-wife that one cannot use an electric menorah to fulfill one's requirements of the mitzvah of lighting a menorah on Chanuka. Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Braun, z"zt"l, writes, with sources, on his commentary on the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch that one's lighting must be in congruence with the lighting of the menorah in The Temple of Jerusalem. a) Something must burnt and b) there is a limit (a discernible end to that which is being burnt.) An electric menorah is rejected by this great posek. The gas, with tanks, at the kotel for Chanuka is permitted.
Parenthically, let me add, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, z"zt"l says that an plugged-in, turned on electric lamp can be moved if you need the place, or for it, itself. (tz'o'rech meh'ko'mo or tz'o'rech goo'fo) Thus, if you are reading in your bedroom and you want to go to sleep (want the room to be dark), you can lift up the electric lamp and move it into the closet. Please make sure that the cord is long enough and that you do not pull it out of the socket. Rav Moshe,z"zt"l says the Shulchan Aruch used a specific language of what you may not move on Shabbat require the fire. One cannot move a "shal'heh'veth" (Hebrew for "flame") Rav Moshe in his wisdom deduced what is obvious, the electric lamp does not have a flame burning. Unfortunately, his Torah wisdom about this "heter" (permissiblity) which is usually the standard for Jewish Western Civilization Jurisprudence has been relegated to an obscure footnote in most books or journals of Halachah. I, and my parents, do move lamps on Shabbos when needed.
kol tuv,
Shlomo Grafstein
shlomoeg@juno.com

The way I read Rav Chaim's posting was that, as you say, one cannot extrapolate from Shabbos lights to those of Chanukah and that the latter cannot be electric.

I did not say that you can use it for a Chanuka Menorah. I just ask according to Rabbi Koppulman's P'sak that seemed to go like R' Chaim Ozer's P'sak that it is fire and it's enough of a fire to be considered a flame to be called a Ner. Rabbi Braun was a big Poseik, but by no means is he exclusive, and i don't think RAv Kuppleman nor Rav chaim Ozer needs to be M'vatel Daas to. (I also don't see any Hechrach to those reasonings you posted. We Paskin that you don't need to do exactly like they did in the Mikdash, so that's why you can use wax candles (and not like one early Achron (I think Maharal) that Pasuls it because it's not similar to the Mikdash), so why must one make other conditions to be similar to the Mikdash, as long as it has a Din of a flame.)

RAv Moshe is known not to hold of using electric lights for Shabbos candles, as I wrote in an earlier post. There are those that argue, and I was asking according to those that do.

The proof from Rav Moshe's P'sak on moving a lamp on Shabbos is not necessary a proof that he holds that electricity is not fire. the Gemarah at the end of the 4th Perek of Shabbos difrenciates between fire that has a Mamoshos and those that doesn't. Sparks, since they don't have Mamashos, you're allowed to catch in a utensil because it doesn't M'vatal Kli Meheichuno. Electricity, since there is no Mamashos to the fire, the lamp doesn't become Busis, but it still could be fire.