quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Did Rabbi Kopelman allow you to light Chanuka Menorah with an electric Menorah? According to your explanation that it's fire, he should of allowed that.

Interesting haora. I can assure you that we kindled a regular menora . I have a "chap" to differenciate .By ner chanuka Chazal were mechayev a shiur of fuel .Electricity may not fall into this category

The question is why not? Why shouldn't it if all the electricity power is ready to go into the appliance. There is more than a half an hour electricity reserves waiting to be used, so why don't we say we have a Shiur? How about a battery powered Menorah? Would we say that has a Shiur?

Please try to understand. I said that Rav Moshe,z"zt"l said that because the author of the Shulchan Aruch specifically said that one cannot move a "shal'heh'veth"=flame, then that, and that alone is what was set up as completely prohibitted from moving.(*) One cannot add their own prohibitions.
(*) If you need the spot on the Shabbos table where the lit licht are burning, you cannot move them. Period.
Please quote to me your source from your great Jewish Law decision makers who say that you can use an electric menorah for the mitzvah of lighting for Chanukah. Please be forthright and no conjectures. I need a p'sak source, no extrapolations, please.
Have a sweet Shabbos with your candles or oil
shining brightly,
Kol Tuv,
Sincerely yours,
shlomo
shlomoeg@juno.com

"L'had'lik NER..." is electricity a Ner?

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
The question is why not? Why shouldn't it if all the electricity power is ready to go into the appliance. There is more than a half an hour electricity reserves waiting to be used, so why don't we say we have a Shiur? How about a battery powered Menorah? Would we say that has a Shiur?

Electricity might not be considered a fuel in the stage of current ; it becomes a fuel when the positive and negative meet at the bulb

I didn't say there was any Poseik (that I know of) that allows lighting Channuka Menorah with electricity. I was just comparing to lighting Shabbos candles by it. Reb Yaakov Fink already stated that his Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Koppelman allowed that because of Rav Chaim ozer's stance that electricity is fire. If so, my conclusion would be that the same holds for Chanukah candles. Yaakov fink wrote a difference between them, and I made my comments on them. I know Rav Pam held that you can light SHabbos candles with electricity, as told to me by his grandson. Rav SImcha Bunim Cohn, in one of his Shabbos books, brings down that many Poskim argue with Rav Moshe about lighting Shabbos candles with electricity and allow it. I don't have the book by me now, so I can't quote where that is.

NOw, not all Poskim that allow lighting candles are because it's fire. It could be that all you need is light. I already wrote all this in an earlier post. I wouldn't even reccomend to light Shabbos candles with electricity, only in a hospitol (without a Bracha, even though I heard my rebbi (Rabbi Belsky) said you should make a bracha) where you can't light candles. The same by Channuka candles. Those who are in the hospital and cannot light the Menorah lights with electric without a Bracha. (Those who have families should rely on the families lighting.)

About what the Shulchan orech says about a flame being a Busses for the candlesticks and table, anything muktzah makes aBusses. If something is not classified under a utensil or food, then it is Muktzah. So anything mukzah untop of a non Muktzah always makes it Muktzah (this is not an isolated case to a flame.) So then why isn't it Muktzah? Even if you say it doesn't have a Din fire on it you must come onto my answer that electricity doesn't have any mamish and it's like a spark.

Your point about is electricity considered a "Ner", that is dependent if it's fire. To Rav Chaim ozer, Ein Hacha Nami it's a flame. See my earlier post that I ask this as a question on those who claim it not to be fire, yet you can light it for Shabbos, since you have light.

quote:

Electricity might not be considered a fuel in the stage of current ; it becomes a fuel when the positive and negative meet at the bulb

I'm not that knowledgable of how electricity works, but why wouldn't it be considered feul before the positive and negitive meet at the bulb? Why is it worse than oil where it's not ready to be fuel until you light it and doesn't light until it's drawn into the wick?

electiricity has no substance;it's just a current.

I agree with that (this is th reason I said that it doesn't make it a Boses.) This would bring me to my next point. DO you need a "Cheftza" of fuel or the ability to last a half an hour? In other words, this that it needs to have to light a half jour, is it because in order that it should have a "Sheym" NEr Chanukah it needs to be lasting a half an hour, or do you just need it to be able to last a half hour so that your action of lighting is a half hour's lighting.

A proof would be that it's not dependant of the amount of fuel (that you need a CHeftzah of fuel.) Since the amount of fuel varies between how thick the wicks are, so there is no amount of fuel that is considered fuel for a half hour. Its just at the time of lighting do we say would this lighting last a 1/2 hour.

But maybe it would be dependent on the Shaila in the Pischai T'shuva Yoreh Deah 87 (#3 or 4) about lighting the Menorah with fuel that was a combination of milk and meat. One that prohibbited brough the reason because it's missing the Shiur (which is Shver, since Milk and meat are from the ones that get buried and not from the burnt ones) This would seem that there is a deffinite SHiur to NEr Chanukah, that you need a Cheftzah of oil. (Unless you say that we don't even consider it able to light a half hour, but this is not probable.)

to this extend I can hear to compare it to the menora where we need fuel .It might be similar to shemen shemen shel ness

Over there was different, since the Torah said you need a certain material, Shemen Zayis Zach, and Shemen Nes is not Shemen from a olive. Over here, Chazal didn't care about the material and all oils are Kosher.

To see how I answer the question of Shemen Nes, seehttp://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/700108461/m/311100997

If we go a little into "drush" it would make perfectly sence that we need a material for ner chanuka; we remember the ness that a material burned longer

quote:

Originally posted by sam-:
Yehoshua, can you please be more specific in what you are commenting on? Thanks

Perhaps I was a bit pedantic; I objected to the original post phrasing, how does one >feel...<. Wanted to emphasize not a ques. of feeling, but of thinking in halacha. Sorry I wasn't clear.

The termanoligy of "feel" has two meanings. One is feely touchy, which has no place in Halacha. The termanoligy of "feel" in the context of how I wrote it is more like when someone has a "feel" for something. A tangable feeling for a action or a subject. it's like V'Nirah Li.

Rav Chaim is right in one regard that feely touchy has no influence in halachic decisions. However, feelings and a touchy person's reaction is very much a part of halachah.
The emotional loss is so great in certain instances that the chachomim allowed certain Rabbinically prohibitted food which they had declared prohibitted, permissible for certain people (a poor person etc.) where there is a hef'sed meh'ru'bah (a great loss)
Also Rabbi Avigdor Miller,z"zt"l, who strongly prohibitted going to the movies---told a ba'al t'shuvah couple that they can go (but not in their neighbourhood)---The movies were a vehicle for special bonding to strengthen their marriage...Halachah is flexibible within certain guidelines in consultation with a Talmud Chacham.
Because one is a sensitive individual---then even now up-and-coming nine days--- bathing is permissible under certain conditions for an is'tan'is (a delicate soul). Nowadays people are used to removing sweat and body odours by washing.
Again, I stress that Halachah is mind over heart. However, the halachah takes into account the heart of the yah'cheed (the individual).
Again I ask the learned Rabbi, who says that one can light an electric menorah to fulfill one's requirements for Channuka?
I am not talking about having one in one's hospital room as a reminder of Channuka--so turn on the electricity.
I am talking about your extrapolation from Shabbat electric memorah to channuka
Kol Tuv,
Shlomo
shlomoeg@juno.com