[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rabbi Peretz Moncharsh:

If you want to debate halacha I would be more that happy to list the exact sources I based my writings on. See the Bach, Prisha, Beis Shmuel, Chelkas Mechokek, Taz, Pishcei Teshuva and Ezer MiKodesh on Even HaEzer 21:6. See also the Aruch HaShulchan 21:8. See Shut MaHaRaM Shik 53 and Minchas Yitzchok 8:156.
If you want to bring sources that contradict what I brought, I would be happy to hear them. Furthermore, I welcome hearing alternative explanations of the seforim I quoted. Also, you are welcome to challenge my judgment on where to draw the line between a polite greeting and a friendly one. This is the way of learning Torah."

REPLY::

Firstly;
The Halacha you are bringing up from the Shulchan Aruch and commentaries has nothing to do with our discussion.
The halacha there is speaking where one wants to INITIATE a friendly greeting to a woman.
Our discussion dealt with a case where a woman had sent the first message, in which case it is derech eretz to respond as I have said.

In addition the Aruch Hashulchan you mentioned clearly points out that even initiating a greeting to a woman is only a problem if a person thinks he will not be able to control his yetzer horah and it will lead to sin, otherwise there is NEVER a problem.

quote:

In addition the Aruch Hashulchan you mentioned clearly points out that even initiating a greeting to a woman is only a problem if a person thinks he will not be able to control his yetzer horah and it will lead to sin, otherwise there is NEVER a problem.

Given that this is a distance e-greeting, who's sin would we be talking about, and how time removed from the greeting must we be concerned?

Today when it is common for men to speak to women, and a greeting to a woman is not interpreted as a romantic overture, the prohibition probably does not exist.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
Firstly;
The Halacha you are bringing up from the Shulchan Aruch and commentaries has nothing to do with our discussion.
The halacha there is speaking where one wants to INITIATE a friendly greeting to a woman.
Our discussion dealt with a case where a woman had sent the first message, in which case it is derech eretz to respond as I have said.

I'm not sure what the source would be for making a distinction based on who initiated the contact, but it does seem logical that if a woman greeted a man that he would be permitted to reply. While I can think of no grounds to have permitted her greeting, for him to ignore her would be rude. Therefore, his response would be polite rather than friendly.
However in the case at hand this would not apply. No one was personally greeted that the absence of a response would have rude. A simple statement was made that she was back.

quote:

In addition the Aruch Hashulchan you mentioned clearly points out that even initiating a greeting to a woman is only a problem if a person thinks he will not be able to control his yetzer horah and it will lead to sin, otherwise there is NEVER a problem.

This is not an accurate quote of the Aruch HaShulchan. What he does say is that a person who has so completely conquered his yetzer hara that he can be certain that it will not raise any thoughts in his mind may greet a woman.
Furthermore, the Aruch HaShulchan is quoting from the last Ritva in Meseches Kiddushin. The Ritva there concludes that only a very great Chassid may rely on this dispensation, as we find many Tanaim and Amoraim did not consider themselves to be on this high level.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:
Given that this is a distance e-greeting, who's sin would we be talking about, and how time removed from the greeting must we be concerned?

"Sin" in this context refers to inappropriate thoughts and would apply even at a distance and is not constrained by time.

Unfortunately, today when it is common for men to greet women inappropriate behavior and thought have become more common, not less.
Therefore I see no grounds to erase a seif in Shulchan Aruch based on unsubstantiated speculation. Actually, the Minchas Yitzchok I mentioned discusses this issue, and his conclusion is that it is forbidden.

(QUOTE)
This is not an accurate quote of the Aruch HaShulchan. What he does say is that a person who has so completely conquered his yetzer hara that he can be certain that it will not raise any thoughts in his mind may greet a woman.
Furthermore, the Aruch HaShulchan is quoting from the last Ritva in Meseches Kiddushin. The Ritva there concludes that only a very great Chassid may rely on this dispensation, as we find many Tanaim and Amoraim did not consider themselves to be on this high level.

Response:
My quote was quite accurate.I don't know where you got yours. There is no point in arguing over the veracity of a quote,for anyone who wants can look it up for themselves.
I am aware that this comes from the Ritva, however the Aruch Hashulchan did not at all quote that last statement, obviously feeling it is not l'halacha

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
I am aware that this comes from the Ritva, however the Aruch HaShulchan did not at all quote that last statement, obviously feeling it is not l'halacha

That would be very strange. According to your understanding the Ritva contradicts himself from the first sentence that the Aruch HaShulchan quotes to the next sentence that he ignores.

quote:

My quote was quite accurate.I don't know where you got yours. There is no point in arguing over the veracity of a quote,for anyone who wants can look it up for themselves.

I suspect that not all readers of the Global Yeshiva will be able to look up the Aruch HaShulchan themselves. Therefore I propose that one of the readers look it up in Even HaEzer 21:8 and report baht to the readers on what he finds. That way we can resolve this issue once and for all.
Does the Aruch HaShulchan write that only a great Tzaddik may greet a woman or that only a wicked person may not?

To make things easier, I have posted the relevant excerpt from the Aruch HaShulchan for the readers perusal.
Aruch HaShulchan

Thank you Rav Peretz for posting the Aruch HaShulchan. I have also now read what the Ritva has to say.

It seems to me to boil down to the question of whether or not one will be able to (say) greet a woman without one's Yetzer getting the better of him. It is a sad fact of life that we now live in a world (at least here in Golus) where we are surrounded by all manner of Pritzus and we have to an extent become inured to it so that dealing with women on a normal day-to-day basis (especially not face to face, as with the internet) would not involve a problem of having to conquer his Yetzer, as it just wouldn't exist.

quote:

(especially not face to face, as with the internet)

In other circumstances (speaking about a computer user - I heard someone say this in their rabbi's name) it seems that another computer user is just a username, not necessarily a person, and thus we might be talking about greeting a username here?

Similarly, with distance comes doubt as to who is the user behind the username - are they really Jewish, are they really their presumed gender, and marital status? { or per the "Turing Test" is it just an Artificial Intelligence program, or a live person? )

Thus any Yetzer would all the more so perhaps be only in the greeter's imagination?

What is the "Turing Test"?

quote:

What is the "Turing Test"?

Mr. Turing stated that when a person could be interacting through a computer with another entity and could not determine whether they were interacting with a live human or with pre-programmed software, that would mean that "artificial intelligence" had been achieved.

http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/sum2003/entries/turing-test/

Rob,
I responded to a similar question you poted on the previous page
"I didn't find any grounds to be lenient, as the reason it is forbidden is because it leads to affection and familiarity between the sexes. This would seemingly be relevant even when using a nickname and even in public.
Of course if the person was lead to believe that he was corresponding with a man and it turned out to really be a woman he would be considered an "ones"."
The marital status and gender would be irrelevant, as the prohibition applies also to a single woman and to a non-Jew

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
It seems to me to boil down to the question of whether or not one will be able to (say) greet a woman without one's Yetzer getting the better of him. It is a sad fact of life that we now live in a world (at least here in Golus) where we are surrounded by all manner of Pritzus and we have to an extent become inured to it so that dealing with women on a normal day-to-day basis (especially not face to face, as with the internet) would not involve a problem of having to conquer his Yetzer, as it just wouldn't exist.

I actually found some basis for your proposal that constant exposure leads to desensitizing. The Mishna toward the end of Kiddushin says that a man who derives his livelihood from dealing with women, like a perfume salesman, may not seclude himself with women. The Rambam quotes this halacha as "even a man who...", and similarly writes the Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 22:7. The Taz explains that one who is constantly exposed to women is less likely to think about them.
However Rashi and Tosafos explain the Mishna that specifically such a person is at increased risk because of his familiarity with women, and so rules the Rema in 22:5. Furthermore, even according to the logic of the Rambam, his desensitization has no significance in halacha and the bottom line is that he is just as suspect as anyone else.
Also, according to this logic one would expect modern Western culture to have much fewer incidents of sexual misbehavior due to the unprecedented mingling between the sexes. Unfortunately the opposite has proven true.
Finally, there are frequent instances of illicit romance started through internet chat groups, despite the initial contact not being face to face.
Therefore, it seems to me clear that all the provisions of Shulchan Aruch in this topic should still be fully applicable today and on the net.

quote:

Therefore, it seems to me clear that all the provisions of Shulchan Aruch in this topic should still be fully applicable today and on the net.

I can't fault your logic, but I have been trying to find a source that is more recent than the Aruch HaShulchan. I would have expected this question to have been dealt with by at least one of the latter day Poskim. I have done a search on my Bar Ial Responsa Library for "Ein Sho'alim B'Shalom" and "Lidei Chiba" and all that comes up is the Tur, Beis Yosef, Shulchan Aruch and Chelkas Mechokek (it doesn't have the Aruch HaShulchan, but it does have Igros Moshe, Yabia Omer, Yechaveh Da'as, Tzitz Eliezer and many, many more).

I mentioned before that the Minchas Yitzchok has a teshuva on the topic, vol8 156 if I remember correctly.
If you don't have access to a copy of Minchas Yitzcok you can send me your email address and I will try to send it to you as a PDF.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Peretz Moncharsh:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
I am aware that this comes from the Ritva, however the Aruch HaShulchan did not at all quote that last statement, obviously feeling it is not l'halacha

That would be very strange. According to your understanding the Ritva contradicts himself from the first sentence that the Aruch HaShulchan quotes to the next sentence that he ignores

RESPONSE:
It is not strange at all. The first part of the Ritva is the basic halacha, the second part the Aruch Hahulchan considers a middus chassidus that does not apply to us.

quote:

I mentioned before that the Minchas Yitzchok has a teshuva on the topic, vol8 156 if I remember correctly.
If you don't have access to a copy of Minchas Yitzcok you can send me your email address and I will try to send it to you as a PDF.

I have a full set of Minchas Yitzchok, but Vol. 8 only goes as far as Siman 148.

sorry. It is 8:126

Thanks. I'll try and have a look at it over Shabbos.