(This is listed under my profile as my pet peeve, and I've finally decided to bring it up to see if you have any thoughts on the matter.)

Private school is not an option for many Jewish people - including us. I don't know if you have any experience with public schools, but let me tell you what can go on there, EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE INFORMED THE TEACHER AND THE PRINCIPAL THAT YOUR CHILD IS JEWISH:

Your child will be taught about Santa Claus. He will be taught that Santa is real, and that if he does not receive toys on Christmas morning, the only reason would be that the child has been bad. Your child will do about 100 activities and assignments related to Christmas, such as making Christmas ornaments "to hang on his tree at home," being asked to write about his favorite Christmas traditions, etc. If you're Jewish, and the rest of the class is painting Christmas trees with a sign that says "Merry Christmas," your child will be asked to paint a Christmas tree and write "Happy Holidays." You will be informed that, throughout November and December, all the children will be practicing Christmas carols on a regular basis, so that the entire school can go caroling in the town and then have a party. You will be told that if you do not want your child to participate because he is Jewish, your child will have the option of spending all the practice sessions in the remedial room. When you attend the "Winter Concert" or the "Winter Play," you will hear many overtly Christian tunes and songs. The theme of the concert or play will likely be Christmas. If the play is anything like the first one I went to (I of course did not attend any others), the dialogue may include something like this:
CHRISTMAS ANGEL (to child): ARE YOU STUPID OR SOMETHING??? EVERYONE KNOWS THE MOST IMPORTANT DAY OF THE YEAR IS CHRISTMAS!!!
Although the school may have an offical policy that states that no new material may be taught on Jewish Holidays, if your child DOES take off from school on a Jewish holiday, he will almost always miss learning new material and will fall behind. Easter brings a whole other round of activities/lessons/songs. Your child's classmates, upon accidentally touching your child's head one day, will remark in surprise that he "thought all Jews have horns." (I thought that myth died years ago.) Your child's teacher will proudly tell you that she taught the class about Chanukah and Kwanza today, and think you will be HAPPY that 1) your child and all his classmates got the impression that, compared with Christmas, Chanukah is nothing and Jews never have fun, and 2) the teacher has stressed the wrong things about Chanukah.

When my children's teachers didn't seem to understand, I approached a Christian acquaintance who is very influential in the school. She said that schools must teach about everything that goes on in the outside world, and that since Christmas is a major thing in the outside world, teachers should not ignore it. When I asked why it was not sufficient that Christian children learn all about Christmas from their parents and churches, she simply repeated her previous statement. ...While she probably meant what she said, I believe that the underlying reason why most teachers stress Christmas is because it's an excuse to make school fun, and because they enjoy spreading the joy of Christmas. I also believe that, with a little effort, these teachers could think of OTHER ways to make school fun, and could spread the joy of living and learning. ...As an interesting "by-the-way," when I was asked to videotape a school Thanksgiving feast, and I asked the children what they were thankful for, a whole BUNCH of teachers ran up to me and told me I could not ask that because it was a religious question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These are only the things I can remember. I have been home-schooling for several years now. Nevertheless, I am mad that, in a land that supposedly separates church and state, this kind of thing exists.

I or some other Jewish person could bring a lawsuit against the school, which would likely go all the way to the Supreme Court. And just as in the case of the father who didn't think the phrase "under G-d" belongs in the pledge of allegiance, the person bringing the lawsuit - and that person's children - would face extreme animosity from just about everyone in the town and in the nation.

Your thoughts?

Not only that, but there are plenty other things that are being taught in the public schools that have no right to be taught there. Like certain liberal ideology and the sort. These are good reasons to support school vouchers. The parent should decide the atmosphere and the ethics that the child would be exposed to.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulette:

" I don't know if you have any experience with public schools, but let me tell you what can go on there...Your child will be taught about Santa Claus. He will be taught that Santa is real, and that if he does not receive toys on Christmas morning, the only reason would be that the child has been bad. Your child will do about 100 activities and assignments related to Christmas, such as making Christmas ornaments..."


I find this hard to believe. Are you talking about 30 years ago, or today? I went to public schools, and so have most of my friends. I have spent many years working in them as an adult, and I have never seen this particular behaviour. Not once.



"If you're Jewish, and the rest of the class is painting Christmas trees with a sign that says "Merry Christmas," your child will be asked to paint a Christmas tree and write "Happy Holidays." You will be informed that, throughout November and December, all the children will be practicing Christmas carols on a regular basis, so that the entire school can go caroling in the town and then have a party."


This claim I accept, but even this is no longer happening in 90% of the schools in the United States. Laws have changed, and Christian sensitivity to non-Jews has grown enormously over the last 40 years.


"You will be told that if you do not want your child to participate because he is Jewish, your child will have the option of spending all the practice sessions in the remedial room."


Listen, if this is true then contact the ACLU and get a lawyer and sue the school. Because NO SCHOOL IN AMERICA IS ALLOWED TO DO THIS. The only Jews who let their kids do this are ones who secretly want their kids to be Christian. If they really felt otherwise, they'd sue, and win millions of dollars.

I can guarnatee you that not a single school district in the US would survive such a court challenge.

Can you give us any examples of this happening now? And if so, what was the response of the Jewish family?


"When you attend the "Winter Concert" or the "Winter Play," you will hear many overtly Christian tunes and songs. "

This is true.


"The theme of the concert or play will likely be Christmas. If the play is anything like the first one I went to (I of course did not attend any others), the dialogue may include something like this:
CHRISTMAS ANGEL (to child): ARE YOU STUPID OR SOMETHING??? EVERYONE KNOWS THE MOST IMPORTANT DAY OF THE YEAR IS CHRISTMAS!!!"


In the past, sure! But I find this hard to believe in the late 20th and early 21st century America. Can you give us any examples of this happening now? And if so, what was the response of the Jewish families? If this happens, and we Jews fail to respond, then wouldn't it our fault for allowing ourselves to be treated in this way? We have rights, and we should not be ashmed to ask that they be respected.



Rob

Full acceptance of Jews with Jewish ideas by the public schools or anyother non-jewish entity is improbable and maybe undesirable. The is the esence of galus. We must work (histadlus) and be vigalant, but the effort is what defines our existance until geula, bimhairah v'yamainu.

There was a great article in the NYTimes a few years back about the public schools at the turn of the previous century and the catholic religion. It was not pretty. outside of the aforementioned thoughts on galus expectaion of acceptance may be naieve. Yes we can sue anybody,we can even win. But to what end. Jewish children deserve a Jewish education. Public school is not sufficient.

Well, the funny thing is that most of the public-school kids consider Xmas to be a time of presents, a tree in the house and sitting on Santa's lap in the supermarket, and a ton of nerdy-ish cartoons tallling the stories that it is good to share. They know less of their cultural history than we do of ours and theirs. The songs are usually to the music by the great composers of the 18th and 19th centuries (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven).

After all, when the London's Academy of St.Martin's-in-the-Fields orchestra plays "The ode to the Queen of Sheba" by Haendel, nobody remembers that the Queen of Sheba's only claim to fame is that she visited the Jewish King Solomon...

And let's face it. The majority of this country is non-Jewish. They want to have their Xmas - so let them have it. But when the ("African-American") Mayor of San Francisco Brown lights the Hanukkiyah - should we feel offended?

I am sure that whoever encourages is well meaning. The current jewish majority thought is integration. For those reciting slichos we can see that this is not the tradional view. That leaves the issue of kiddush hashem or chillul hashem. Including the positive that if the Goim understand Jewish ritual better they are, Abishter helfin, less likely to pogram. And, the negative; I hope neither the Goy or the attendant Jew made a brucha, and that nobody in attendance believed that this fulfilled the mitzvah for themselves, including persons watching on television (if it was televised). We learn in the gamarah that we are responsible for the fire in our field if it runs to our neighbors field. In doing a tovah we should be arware of the possible negative that we can cause.

Rav Chaim: Yes, I fully agree that public schools also brainwash kids with liberal dogma. AND I agree that there should be a voucher program.

RobNE: I guess I didn't make it clear that ALL of what I described happened to both of my older children when I sent them to public school - not 30 years ago, but as recently as two years ago. I believe you that it is not as bad as that in all schools. I'm guessing that in cities where there is a significant Jewish population, the administrators are more sensitive to Jewish issues. But I think Jews should be able to live ANYWHERE in this country and not be subject to such things.

You recommend suing and gaining millions of dollars. If I sued, I would have no grounds to ask for money. I could only ask to have public school policies changed (or enforced). But let's say I COULD gain millions of dollars. As I pointed out in my post above, it would not be worth it to have my children and myself cast out of much of society and to have my children and myself the subject of violent threats.

You ask what the Jewish families in the community have done. As with myself, they have done nothing. Probably for the same reason.