Dear all,

I am kind off stuck with a question that bothers me a lot. Over the last view month I keep on hearing: this person is off the derech, the other person is about to go of the derech, another person is also off the derech, he is of the derech, she is of the derech and so on...
And sometimes I see this people have a chat with them as if nogthing is hapeing. I also meet a lot of people that are secular jews.
I am always afraid to start about the topic of judaism. Especially when it is about kiruv. I am so afraid to say something wrong, which creates a bigger distance between me and that person. In other words I am affraid I reach the opposite.
How do you deal with those things? Would you ask people that never go to shul to come to shul? Maybe they will never look at me again...
Please help me out with those things...

B"H

Sanders,

Try not being overly sensitive when you hear bad remarks spoken about other people. Ignore such words.

As far as "Kiruv" is concerned, try to be natural. Invite your friends to the shul, but don't worry about their turning down your offer. Be patient. Invite them again, and eventually they'll take in your offer.

David

quote:

Originally posted by David Ben-Abraham:
B"H

Sanders.... "I am always afraid to start about the topic of judaism. Especially when it is about kiruv. I am so afraid to say something wrong, which creates a bigger distance between me and that person. In other words I am afraid I reach the opposite.",

Try not being overly sensitive when you hear bad remarks spoken about other people. Ignore such words.

As far as "Kiruv" is concerned, try to be natural. Invite your friends to the shul, but don't worry about their turning down your offer. Be patient. Invite them again, and eventually they'll take in your offer.

David

I'm sorry the word "kiruv" is insulting. It makes it seem like people aren't really Jewish. GIVE ME A BREAK! The reason people don't want to talk about being Jewish is because they don't SEE that there is a true difference between being loyal to a Torah life-style, or better a Torah perspective on Life, and Not. They don't see and experience Torah in the actions of others, they only see and experience people talking about how they are so comitted to learning Torah... Torah and Jewish values shouldn't be a "topic that needs to be brought up".... I have secular Jewish friends I don't pound them with questions like "did you wrap teffillin? or did you daven? or did you read Torah today?" Give them a break! If your life reflects and reveals a trust in HaShem then your speaking about Torah will NOT be for kiruv. OY! Have you ever tried relating to these so-called secular Jew's and what they are dealing with? Try really communicating to people, not having a 'topic of discussion' (oh my change the channel). If you sit and study all day then admit to your friends that you don't know what they have to deal with, and admit that you wish everyone could spend sometime studying Torah because it does have an Effect, not just an affect, in your life. Become a real friend and enjoy the person no matter what madregah of observance they are on, if they speak about things that are mundane or worse - just tell a story about something you learned and how it made your day or life better, or better yet ask them why that idea is so important to them... WOW! I am always so blown away by the idea that we still think of other Jews as being or not being 'Jewish'. Get real, a tree can not change its roots - i.e. an oak tree even if it is the only oak tree in a forest of ashwood trees IS STILL an Oak! Jews even if they don't observe are still Jews, so treat them that way. I once said to a secular Israeli freind of mine, "hey, do you think that all this stuff is just a bunch of junk or is there maybe some truth worth learning about? I mean after all, it has been 3500 years and we still read the same book! Maybe it's worth five minutes of reading...what do you think?" He admitted he had never read the whole Chumash, let alone the whole Tanach, I said, "then how is it you think you're an expert on saying it isn't worth reading", Talk about hypocrisy! Hypocrisy is not when you fail to live up to higher standards, it is when you think that having a higher standard is not worth living up to.
Forget about "kiruv techniques" - try being a real honest person, a real Jew! Try actually talking with the person instead of 'at them about something' (like you are both characters in a play)... You might find that your friends just want to be given the opportuntity to realize that being Jewish doesn't mean they have to become someone else (someone who they can't see themselves being at this time), growth doesn't mean changing who you are it is just the process of becoming more of who you really are! If you feel like your Jewishness is only apparent when you talk about Jewish things, then perhaps your Jewishness is not actually part of your entire life, After all Baal Shem Tov said, "everyone we meet a mirror" and Rebbe Nachman said, "what we see in others, if we find it negative is a lesson for improving our own character". A person's world-view should reflect their core essence in everything... Torah is a blueprint, it is not a billboard... understanding that difference is essential. i.e if Torah really is the Source, and basis for Truth, then anything and everything that exists has a Truth from Torah in it - your assignment (if you chose to accept it) is to recognize and reveal that element of Turth even in your everday existence and thereby be a reason that others realize it; that life is a gift from HaShem - after all enjoying life because we know its all because of HaShem is the point - isn't it? If you can't relate to something then don't, because it may not be what you are suppose to relate to, and lets face it, people who are always giving contrived statements about Torah/Judaism that have nothing to do with what another person is talking about or dealing with is - well - lame, so is someone who is always telling others what "he" thinks they should or shouldn't do because "he knows the Gemora".
Propaganda is by nature a means of convincing people that they need to convince other people that what they need is to think, act and possess things other than what they have, without any real reason for actually needing or wanting it other than a desire for more (be it control, power, sensuality, possessions, food, alcohol, drugs, status, the praises of others/fame, money, etc...) Advertising "Judaism" is not what Avraham and Sarah did, nor did Moshe, David, Shlomo, Eliyahu, Elisha, the Maccabees, Rebbi HaKodesh, Rebbe Akiva, Rashi, Rambam, etc... be good because you are good, and if you have a question about that then first figure it out for yourself before telling someone what they should or should not do. Mishle says, "out of the heart comes the abundance of words..." if you listen to people close enough they are always telling you the truth of where they are at and what they need, want, expect... [My perspective: for instance, you sound concerned for others (chesed), yet is your concern for them coming from a sense of judgement (gevurah) about them which is based in fear that if they don't do what you're doing and start studying Torah they will - what - die, go to hell, not enjoy a good Shabbat dinner? or is it a real sense of Ve'ahavta le'rayehcha kamocha... my experience is that if it is the former, then people don't want to talk with, and if the latter, you don't have to talk because they will ask your advice.... think about it - everyone listens to Oprah, because she has given away some much money, people want to be in a little way like Oprah so they listen to her... "G_d desires to make the Torah great and glorious" how? when we want it for ourselves so that we will be known for our (put your favorite vice in here, Torah knowledge, Torah-observance...) it is both a trap of the yeitzer hara and a paradox of studying Torah (for its own sake)... What we do is who we are! and what you think about most eventually comes out in what we say, therefore... (gee, just look at the blunder by Kerry yesterday)...
Here's a good Q-line: "Do you have emunah/faith? Then, Name something that you have faith in, and why you have faith in what you named? now what if your reason for having faith in what you named was proved wrong, shown to be false, or incomplete - then what would you do and why would you do it?"
happy hunting... (unless you're in the shoresh of Avel...)
Thanks/Todah!

B"H

Yehonaton, Shalom!

With all due respect, the question was not whether or not a Jewish person who is considered a "Tinok Shenishbah" (תינוק שנשבה) is still considered Jewish. Of course he is! Rather, the question was whether or not a person who is such, and who may have never learned about Shabbos laws, or forbidden foods, etc. can be drawn closer to Yiddishkeit and to a life of religious observance without affronting him. I think there are many examples of where people have, indeed, been drawn closer, and they are very appreciative of that person who guided them.

Sincerely,
David