If one is not born into a nusach, how does one go about choosing one? A friend recently asked how we did this and I was stumped. As somebody who moved often this question made more sense to me. For friends who became frum through Chabad or don't move this seemed easier. But for those who davened wherever they were, what should they do to set something up. I have several friends who are more recent balaai teshuvah and have no idea how to respond.

The starting point has to be your father or paternal grandfather's Nusach; as a general rule (per R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l) that should be your Nusach.

I think that for most people the choice of a nusach depends on the shul that they frequent. No matter what nusach they usually follow, they should follow the nusach of their shul in order to fulfill the mitzvah of Tefila B'Tzibbur. This becomes important when choosing a place to live. You may not want to limit your choices to neighborhoods that have a shul that follow your father's nusach. How concerned should you be about Nusach? You learn when you study the history of the development of the Siddur, that much of the language of the Siddur has changed over the years. And it is still happening today. Do you know that when Artscroll published its RCA Siddur it changed one word in the Bracha of Baruch Sh'Amar from the prior edition of the RCA Siddur. I'll let you figure out which word. What Artscrolll did was to take sides in a conflict among Chazal that has spanned for hundreds of years.

B"H

I tend to agree with both responses to the question posed here. Generally speaking, a Jewish man is obliged not to forsake the tradition of his forefathers. We have many references to this all throughout the writings of חז"ל, especially in the fourth chapter of Meseches Pesahim.

On the other hand, many times we frequent another shul (synagogue) where the nusach is different from our own. Since they are the majority, one has no choice but to conform to their order of reading in the synagogue. When I studied at a certain Yeshiva in Jerusalem, such was the rule of practice, that anyone who visited and wished to serve as a Shaliach Tzibbur, had to make use of the nusach that was adapted by the Yeshiva. On the other hand, if he was not a Shaliach Tzibbur, he could make use of his own siddur and nusach while davening.

David

Usully a person doesn't really choose a Nuash rather the communities or their teacher which influence their way of prayer tends to decide the Nasuch that they follow.

Though if they want to choose, It is as Yisroel phillips said that one should take on the Nusach of male side and if this is not known then that of the motherside. Just as much one typically choose the Nasuch of their Rav whom they follow.

For you second question which I agree with Abe in which the use the siddur of the shul they are attending at that moment. and if that shul have different types of siddur then that present them a chance to take a look at different siddur and get familar with it. and over time they will began to notice which type of Nasuch their using mostly and feel comfortable using. which typically I have notice is Nasuch Askanazi or Nausch Safrd (not to be confused with Sepharidic Nasuch).

Abe can you please elaborate on what you mean by taking sides, and what is the RCA siddur?

The Nusach Arizal is for people who don't know what their Nusach is.
It is a comprehensive Nusach and the prayers were arranged by the Arizal, for our generation, as we do not know which tribe we come from.
I'll try and find some more reliable info on this if you want.
Lubavitch use the Nusach Arizal.
But you don't have to be Lubavitch to use it.
Whichever Nusach you choose, it's preferable to find a shule that davens in the same one.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam-:
Abe can you please elaborate on what you mean by taking sides, and what is the RCA siddur?

RCA is the Rabbinical Council of America.

The only word I can think was changed was "B'Feh" to "B'Fi" or vice versa.

Yisroel, thank you for taking the time to find the difference. The disagreement concerns whether it is more important to recite the Bracha in a grammatically correct form, B'Fi or to make a reference to the number "87" which is the gematria of P'Peh. Here is an article I wrote about the whole issue:

The origin of the ברכה of ברוך שאמרis shrouded in mystery. The גמראdoes not
provide for a ברכה either before or afterפסוקי דזמרה . Nevertheless, the ברכה is found
in the סדר רב עמרם גאוןas follows:
כשנכנסין ישראל בבתי כנסיות להתפלל עומד חזן הכנסת ופותח: ברוך שאמר והיה העולם ברוך הוא.
Theמשנה ברורה in סימן נא' ס"ק א' traces the source:
ברוך שאמר - שבח זה תקנוהו אנשי כנסת הגדולה על ידי פתקא דנפל מן שמיא ומצאוהו כתוב בו. ויש בו פ"ז תיבות, וסימנו ראשו כתם פז; רצה לומר, ראש התפלה הוא ברכה של פ"ז תיבות. על כן אין לגרוע ולא להוסיף על פ"ז תיבות.
The statement of the משנה ברורהleaves us with two questions. First, on what basis did
the משנה ברורה postulate that theברכה of ברוך שאמרoriginated as a prayer that was
written on a note that fell from the heavens? Second, what is the source for the משנה
ברורהto state that there is a significance to the number of words found in the ברכה of
ברוך שאמר?
The earliest source that points out the number of words in ברוך שאמר is the
פירושי סידור התפילה לרוקח (1160-1230) [יד] ברוך שאמר-בברוך שאמר יש פ"ז תיבות, כי נתקן כנגד ראשו כתם פז, ואין להוסיף עליו. וניתקן כנגד האדרת והאמונה, שכך נמצא בספר רקמה 16, שנכתב בכתיבת מלאכים, שהאדרת והאמונה שיר שלהם.
-Footnote 16 בסידור טהינגן (כה א) בתפילת יום הכיפורים: האדרת כו' יש בה פ"ז תיבות
כמו כן בברוך שאמר כו'; יכוין מאד בכל לבו כי הוא שיר המרכבה עד כאן. אכן איני יכול
לכוין החשבון כו'.
The רוקח reveals that the significance of the numberפ"ז is that it relates to פסוק יא'in
שיר השירים פרק ה'-ראשו כתם פז קוצותיו תלתלים שחרות כעורב: -His head is like the finest
gold, his locks are wavy and black like a raven רוקח. The editor of the edition of the which is quoted, Rabbi Moshe Hershler,זצ"ל, in a footnote, informs us of the source for the רוקח and leaves us with a further issue that will remain unresolved: Our version of the prayer, האדרת והאמונה, has 88 words which does not match the number 87 which is the
number of words that are in ברוך שאמר.

Although the רוקחdoes not speak about a note falling from the sky, he relates the
recitation ofברוך שאמר with the recitation of האדרת והאמונה, a prayer that he alleges
was authored by the מלאכים. The לקוטי מהריך(?-1922) links the two prayers directly:
האדרת והאמונה. הנה מנהג דידן לומר פיוט האדרת והאמונה בשבת ויו"ט אחר הלל הגדול קודם ברכת ברוך שאמר, והטעם עיין בסידור ר' שבתי ובס' אור צדיקים משום שנמצא כתוב שבשעה שישראל אומרים ברוך שאמר אומרים המלאכים האדרת והאמונה.
One of the earliest סידורים that refers to the note falling from heaven is the סידור of רב
יעקב מעמדין (1697-1776 ):
ברוך שאמר הוא שבח גדול מאוד, ומפורסם בדברי המחברים שפתקא נפל מרקיע וכתוב בו זה השיר בשבעה ושמונים תיבות כמו שהוא בידינו קהל אשכנזים. וכן מוסכם מהאר"י. ומחמירים מאוד שלא לשנות בו מהנוסח שלפנינו.
Although the version ofברוך שאמר that is part of the current popular סידוריםthat follow
נוסח אשכנז, including the Artscroll RCA סידור and before it, the De Sola Pool
RCA סידור, ברוך שאמר contain 87 words, there are other versions of that contain more
than 87 words including the version found in theסדר רב עמרם גאון , in the סדר התפילות of the רמב"ם and in the versions found in the סידורי מנהג ספרד .

How do we explain the fact that we reciteברוך שאמר even though the ברכה is not
referred to in theגמרא ? This is how it is explained by the ברכי יוסף(1724-1806 ) :
אורח חיים סימן נא ס"ק א'-אומרים ברוך שאמר וכו'. הרב פר"ח תמה דאחר חתימת התלמוד איך יכלו הגאונים לתקן ברכות חדשות, ומהתימה על הרא"ש וכו' ע"ש. ואין כאן תימה דמוכח דברכת ברוך שאמר היא תקנה קדומה קודם התלמוד, דבזהר (ח"ב דף רטו' סוף ע"ב) מזכירה. ותו דהטור כתב משם ספר היכלות דיש בו פ"ז תיבות. וכמדומה שפרקי היכלות הם מר' ישמעאל אחד מעשרה הרוגי מלוכה. ותו דבירושלמי אמרו השח בין ישתבח ליוצר וכו'. וכן הוא במדרש. אלמא ברכת ישתבח בזמן שחובר הירושלמי, דקדים טובא לבבלי, כבר היתה מתוקנת. וברוך שאמר וישתבח בדיבור אחד נאמרו, וזו לפני פסוקי דזמרה וזו לאחריהם.

One letter in one word of ברוך שאמר has caused a wealth of Torah scholarship. Should
the ברכהwithinברוך שאמר read המהלל בפי עמוor המהלל בפה עמו ? Many of you have
unknowingly taken sides on this issue. Your synagogue may have recently replaced the
RCA De Sola Pool סידור with the RCA Artscroll סידור. In doing so, your synagogue
agreed to reciteהמהלל בפה עמו in place of המהלל בפי עמו. You might want to check
the סידור you are holding to see where you stand on this issue.

Artscroll has a very solid basis for its position that theברכה of ברוך שאמר should read
המהלל בפה עמו. In the same comment of the משנה ברורה in סימן נא' ס"ק א'that we
examined above, the משנה ברורהcontinues:
ברוך שאמר... ונכון לאומרו מעומד ואפילו ביחידי. ואוחז ב' ציצית שלפניו בשעת אמירת ב"ש ולאחר גמר ב"ש ינשקם. בפה עמו בסגול. בתשבחות בחירק.
Artscoll is following the lead of theמשנה ברורה who was following the מגן אברהם.

The ancientסידורים including the סדר רב עמרם גאון, the רמב"ם, the מחזור ויטרי, the רוקח , and the אבודרהם present the ברכהofברוך שאמר as המהלל בפי עמו . After the
era of the אר"יthe ברכה of ברוך שאמר as המהלל בפה עמו begins to appear in many
editions of theסידור . This is how the שלחן ערוך הרב explains the switch toבפה .
סימן נא', ב', טז'-יש לומר ברוך שאמר בניגון ובנעימה כי הוא שיר נאה ונחמד; ותקנוהו אנשי כנסת הגדולה על ידי אגרת שנפלה מן השמים ומצאוהו כתוב בו ויש בה פ"ז תיבות ועל פי הסוד יש לומר בפה עמו וסימנך ראשו כתם פ"ז וקבלו לאמרו מעומד אפילו ביחיד; ולא בפי עמו.
What is the dispute between the positions? Those who hold that the ברכה should read
המהלל בפה עמו believe that the words ofברוך שאמר were authored by אנשי כנסת
הגדולהfrom a note that dropped from the heavens. They discovered that the note
contained 87 ( פ"ז) words. They connected the number of words in ברוך שאמר to the
פסוק in שיר השירים which contains the wordsראשו כתם פ"ז . As a result of that link,
they determined that ברוך שאמר should be the lead-in toפסוקי דזמרה . They further
discovered that if the wordבפי is changed to the wordבפה , which in גמטריא also equals 87
(פ"ז), a message can then be conveyed to the רבונו של עולם that we understand why the
רבונו של עולםarranged that the note be dropped from the heavens.

Despite that mystical interpretation, many סידורים continued to print the ברכה of
ברוך שאמרas המהלל בפי עמו for a simple reason. It follows the rules of דקדוק. The word
בפיis a contraction representing two words:בפה של. The word בפי as a contraction fits
into the meaning of the ברכה; in English: “in the mouth of His nation”. The word ,בפה
in contrast, means “in the mouth.” The words “in the mouth” appear to be connected
with that which preceded it; i.e. המהלל; translated as: praised by mouth. The word עמו
would then appear to be connected to what follows it; i.e. משובח; translated: “His nation is
Praiseworthy.” The סידור עבודת ישראל expresses his displeasure with the change :
ומה שאמור במגן אברהם לאורח חיים סימן נא' שיש לומר בפה שהוא בגמטריא פ"ז אין משגיחין בגמטריות שנגד דקדוק הלשון.
רב שבתי סופרwho in the 1600’s compiled what he hoped would be a grammatically
correct סידורhad a much stronger criticism (Editor’s Note: notice the puns):
ושמעתי פי תהפוכת מדקדקים דקדוקי עניות שדורשים לגנאי ואומרים בכאן בפה עמו ונותנים טעם לפגם כי בפ"ה בגמטריא פ"ז לרמוז למספר התיבות של ברוך שאמר ודבריהם עקשות פה לא ידעו ענין הסמוך והמוכרת ולפי דבריהם היה צריך להוסיף מלת של ותהיינה אז פ"ח תיבות בברוך שאמר והוא להם פ"ח יקוש והאמת הפח נשבר ואנחנו נמלטנו. וכבר כתב הבית יוסף באורח חיים ס' נו' שאין לשנות ממטבע שטבעו חכמים בשביל שום דרשה.

Professor Naftali Weider in an article entitled: תיקונים בנוסח התפלה בהשפעת לשונות
לועזיות in his book: התגבשות נוסח התפלה במזרח ובמערב relates that he discovered
סידוריםdating earlier than the era of אר"י in which the ברכה of ברוך שאמר was
written as המהלל בפה עמו. Those סידורים did not refer to theגמטריא of פ"ז nor did
the number of words in their versions of ברוך שאמר equal 87. He further found that in
those same סידורים wherever the word בפי appeared, it had been changed to בפה,
including in theפיוט of קל אדון in תפלת שבת. This is his explanation for the changes:
אני מציע שהנימוק להימנעות ממלת "בפי" נעוץ בעובדה, שמלתFi משמשת בצרפתית ובגרמניה העתיקה (ואף בלשונות אחרות) ביטוי של גנאי המביע בוז וזלזול, ולפרקים אף מלווה ביריקה. ביטוי גנאי זו בהקשר עם הקב"ה יש בו משום פגיעה בכבוד השם.
That the wordפי was a derogatory word is found in a comment made by the מגן אברהם:
כתוב בספר הגן לבטל מחשבה רעה בשעת התפלה יאמר ג"פ פי פי פי אורח חיים סי' צח'-ואח"כ ירוק ג"פ ולא ירוק לגמרי אך בדרך נחת והלשון תהא בין שפתים בשעת הרקיקה ובודאי תלך המחשבה עכ"ל ואינו נ"ל לעשות זה בתוך תפלת י"ח דהוי הפסק ומי יודע אם רפואה בדיקה היא.
It is ironic that theמגן אברהם who supports the change fromבפי to בפהbecause of a
גמטריאnever recognized the connection made by Professor Weider 350 years later.

B"H
Abe. Interesting. Yet, I think the "Beith Yoseph" has summarised the matter very well, by saying:
אין לשנות ממטבע שטבעו חכמים בשביל שום דרשה

"One is not permitted to change the format created by the Sages because of any exegesis."

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

There is no end to exegeses, and if we permit the proof-reading of texts each time a new "dirshah" comes along, the siddur used by our great, great grandchildren will be far different from the siddur used by us today.

David

Abe, thank you for that very interesting post.

It leads me to another realted subject, which is that of what some choose to call, "Nusach ArtScroll". Many Shuls (including ours) now use one or other incarnations of the ArtScroll Siddur (there are numerous, sometimes strange, differences between them) in place of what they were using previously and this has led to a change in the wording of some Tefillos.

Our Shul (part of the United Synagogue of London) has always used the "Singer's Prayer Book" and it differes from ArtScroll in several resepcts.

I can't recall many differences off the top of my head, but one that does stand out is the word "K'dosha" in the Brochos of the Sh'ma (VeChulom Pos'chim etc.) which is "K'dusha" in the ArtScroll. It completely changes the sense of the phrase.

Yisroel-Over the centuries, publishers have influenced the language of the Siddur. Let me give you an example. Why do we say Mishor Shir Chanukas HaBayis before Baruch Sh'Amar? Is it part of Pseukei D'Zimra or part of Karbonas? Why do we say Kaddish Yasom after reciting it? It is quite possibly a publisher's error. When Sephardim recite Mizmor Shir on the 8 days of Chanukah, they do so at the end of Korbanos not after the Yom as Ashkenazim do. In that role, Mizmor Shir triggers the recital of Kaddish Yasom. Some scholars believe that a publisher was copying from a Sephardic Siddur and forgot to put in the note: Sephardim say Mizmor Shir before Baruch Sh'Amar on the 8 days of Chanukah. The Vilna Gaon is one who was opposed to reciting Mizmor Shir before Baruch Sh'Amar. On the other hand, Mikubalim have found a justification for reciting it.

MK Fink,
The Nusach Ari was never intended to be used by all people (if my memmory serves me right) but a seclect group. at least was the result do it great useage of kabbalistic teachings within the siddur.

the thing which made this siddur a general gate of prayer was the combination of both Nausch Shpardic and Nasuch Ashanzi.

The Chabad siddur "Telliot HaShem" like many other Chassdic siddur uses neo-Nauch Ari(i.e Zviller Rebbe calls his Siddur Mershit Nafesh) . I call it Neo due to the fact that these communities change it alittle more in favor of the Ashaszni custom.

the Alter Rebbe Siddur due to the fact that he complied it after the tradition of the Nasuch Ari as well after many other siddur and the customs of his day so that the lay person get the most out of it (keep in mind he wrote it for his community). with halkic notes on various practice which if i understand was unqiue in it's day.


as much i have seen non-Chassdic communities use these neo-Nausch ari siddur and indivual. though mainly they are artscroll edition Nausch Sefard (not to be confused with spharidic siddur).

With that said the Ari siddur is not for everyone even more so not for some beganing to learn their way around a siddur.

quote:

Originally posted by Mack K:
MK Fink,
The Nusach Ari was never intended to be used by all people (if my memmory serves me right) but a seclect group. at least was the result do it great useage of kabbalistic teachings within the siddur.

the thing which made this siddur a general gate of prayer was the combination of both Nausch Shpardic and Nasuch Ashanzi.

The Chabad siddur "Telliot HaShem" like many other Chassdic siddur uses neo-Nauch Ari(i.e Zviller Rebbe calls his Siddur Mershit Nafesh) . I call it Neo due to the fact that these communities change it alittle more in favor of the Ashaszni custom.

the Alter Rebbe Siddur due to the fact that he complied it after the tradition of the Nasuch Ari as well after many other siddur and the customs of his day so that the lay person get the most out of it (keep in mind he wrote it for his community). with halkic notes on various practice which if i understand was unqiue in it's day.


as much i have seen non-Chassdic communities use these neo-Nausch ari siddur and indivual. though mainly they are artscroll edition Nausch Sefard (not to be confused with spharidic siddur).

With that said the Ari siddur is not for everyone even more so not for some beganing to learn their way around a siddur.

And I wholeheartily agree with your statement.
It is unfortunate when the chabad speak start, and naive people are led to believe that Nusach Ari is somthing other than what it is.
It is one of several acceptable nusach for yidden to daven. .

I think we need to lighten up on the Nusach issue. There are many different ones. Indeed, one who hasn't picked one can pick any one of those. The advantage of Nusach Ari, if a person is an international type of person...on business etc, it is used in many places. If one lives and works in New York, this may not be germane....especially if one is already steeped in tradition. Wherever the Lubavitch are, they are using Nusach Ari. Most frum communities do not have the luxury of being represented in all parts of the world. The Lubavitch are there. So Nusach Ari has its place for those who need it. If a person regularly visits Beijing on business or Ambergis Caye on excursions, he is more likely to encounter and use Nusach Ari than a person who lives, works and plays in Boro Park. That continuity is a good thing and has its place.

If you don't know which Nusach you had like BTs, then you should figure it out from your origins. If you're a Sfardi, then your Nusach should be Sfard. If your an Ashkenazi then your Nusach should be Ashkenaz. All the other Nushchayos where introduced later. Though some people took them on for whatever reason, but the original Minhag was either Ashkenaz or Sfardit, so that's what should be taken on in this case.

quote:

I think we need to lighten up on the Nusach issue.

With respect, MosheYisraeli, I disagree.

One's Minhag, transmitted throughout the generations, is very important, and so what Nusach one should use is also important.

There are differences of opinion among the Poskim about changing Nusach (e.g. those who hold by Nusach Ari will say it's OK to change to that Nusach, whereas those who hold by Nusach Ashkenaz will say it's not).

One interesting question is what Nusach a Ger (convert) should use, or indeed what Minhagim generally he should follow.

There is a Teshuvah of Rav Ovadiah Yosef (Yechaveh Da'as 5:33) where he rules that someone who came from an Ashkenazi country and converted in Eretz Yisrael should take on the customs of the Shulchan Aruch (who Rav Ovadiah holds was the "Mora D'Asra" for Eretz Yisrael), both the leniencies and the stringencies. He should also daven with the Nusach of Edot Mizrach.

This is his conclusion:

בסיכום: גר צדק שנתגייר בארץ ישראל, עליו להתנהג כהוראות מרן השלחן ערוך בין להקל בין להחמיר. ואפילו אם היו אבותיו ממדינות אשכנז, ואפילו אם היה אביו יהודי מארצות אשכנז, ואמו נכריה, כיון שאין לו כל יחס לאביו, ולכן הוצרך להתגייר, עליו לנהוג כמנהג המקום שנתגייר, וכדעת המרא דאתרא, הוא מרן שקבלנו הוראותיו. וכן עליו להתפלל בנוסח התפלה של הספרדים ועדות המזרח, שהוא הנוסח המדוייק על פי קבלת האר"י זצ"ל. (וכמו שנתבאר בשו"ת יביע אומר חלק ו' סימן י'). ואין הבדל בזה בין גר לגיורת.

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

One interesting question is what Nusach a Ger (convert) should use, or indeed what Minhagim generally he should follow.

I am still fond of the psak that I heard many years ago. A geir should live in a large diverse community, at least until they find the kehilla (with it's defined nusach and minhagim) that they feel attached to from within. The psak went on to say that the decision of where to stay is like a shidduch and should be treated with the same seriousness.

mkf

Thank you all for your thoughts. I have been asking questions of a few people about thier history and such, not prying about their choices though. I have found that many BT have no idea of their history. Even more interesting when one's mother is Jewish and the father is not.

There are parts of Artscroll that I love and others that I don't. One of the bigget benefits I have seen in the young professional world is that we are accustomed to quality print and those who are just entering the frum world are expecting the same quality of print and binding that one sees in the professional world. This is holy, how can the print be faded and hard to read and the cover coming off? 10 years ago, I was like that so this comment comes from personal experience. Sad but true. I have seen non-Tehillas Hashem siddurim that are Nusach Ari, but have not had the chance to explore them.