Quote "If cheese is made with a kosher piece of ohr hakaiva"

This would seem to connote that only if B'Dieved it was done, but L'Chatchila not, like all other Issurim that we can't Mivatel L'Chatchila. The Madanai HAshulchun #100 also says its only B'Dieved. Frankly, I thought Kosher cheese was made out of synthetic rennet.

1. 99% of kosher cheese today is made with synthetic rennet

2. rennet has the same classification as gelatin. The initial product has to come form a kosher animal, but it's considered so processed down that it is no longer classified as fleishig. Be aware, that not everyone holds that way.

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Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

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Why is kosher cheese kosher if it has kosher rennet in it? Isn't that considered eating meat with milk?

No, because it is only a very small quantity as against the amount of milk.

One is allowed to purposely create a mixture of 1/60th?

Thankyou Rebbe, Rivka, very helpful!

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Originally posted by Sam-:

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:
[QUOTE]Why is kosher cheese kosher if it has kosher rennet in it? Isn't that considered eating meat with milk?

No, because it is only a very small quantity as against the amount of milk.

Batul shishim is supposed to be accidental - so I don't see how it would apply here. For example: if one were to spill a few drops of milk into a meat dish - it was an accident and was only a tiny amount - it could be considered batul. However, one who purposely placed milk into chicken soup to make it creamier - that would have been making treif - not batul.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Quote "If cheese is made with a kosher piece of ohr hakaiva"

This would seem to connote that only if B'Dieved it was done, but L'Chatchila not, like all other Issurim that we can't Mivatel L'Chatchila. The Madanai HAshulchun #100 also says its only B'Dieved. Frankly, I thought Kosher cheese was made out of synthetic rennet.

All you and others write here seems logical, and yet the Aruch HaShulchan (87:41) mentions that there is no basar b'chalav here as it is not being cooked. There is also no issur taste - each of the 2 are permitted.

But if what you say is right, how did they make cheese in biblical times?

To summarize

1. Nearly all rennet today is from genetically modified bacteria. This makes both the Jews and Moslems happy. Actually it was a group in Cairo who invented a test to see if the rennet came from pig or not.
2. In the time of the talmud, everyone had their own stomach bags from a kosher killed animal. It can be reused for cheese many times.
3. Rennet is a special category as Maamid, it is absolutely essential for the cheese to be made. This is a very tiny category of substances. It is not directly related to bitul bshishim.
4. Gelatin is a different category. It is a question at what point (described in the talmud as dry as a peice of wood) does something is not longer considered being of animal origin. Gelatin is a recent problem in this category which was general a discussion of dried materials derived from insects used for medicine. Gelatin is considered a special category by some since it can be reconstituted but the chumradiks would like to use this principle to forbid all bread and flour.
5. Do not expect to walk into a store in Germany or England and find products with a kosher hecsher. The Habad in Greece puts out a list of things to look for. I will let you know how good it is after Sept. when I get back from Mikonos and Athens.

This is all very confusing...so as long as it has a hechsher (here in America) then all is well, right? And why is it alright? What process is used for cheeses here?

An interesting point about not being able to just look at ingedients on a label was answered by Rabbi Dovid Bendory on his site:

http://rabbi.bendory.com/docs/kashrus/ingredients.php

Which I have included below concerning "NATURAL LEMON FLAVORS"


Is the following "100% Natural, Organic, Vegan Lemon Yogurt" kosher?

Ingredients: Organic Soy Milk, Live Yogurt Cultures, Pure Organic Cane Sugar, Natural Lemon Flavoring.

Well, once upon a time, that yogurt had a proper kosher certification. Then the product lost its certification. Why? What is the problem ingredient? It's the "Natural Lemon Flavoring." What is the source of the "natural lemon flavoring" for this "100% Natural, Organic, Vegan Lemon Yogurt"? It must be lemons, right? Wrong. Beaver musk glands. It turns out that beaver musk glands are so darn lemony that a teeny tiny drop will make an entire vat of yogurt naturally lemony. Believe it or not, the lemon flavor from beaver musk glands can be less expensive to use than lemon. And beavers, being free-ranging and organic, are indeed 100% natural, right? (By the way, the amount of beaver extract was small enough that the USDA still considered the product eligible for the "Vegan" label without qualification. But that doesn't make it kosher.)

THAT IS DISGUSTING!! WHO IS OUT THERE MILKING BEAVER GLANDS??

Thank you, Dr. Shore, for your usual accurate details. I must, at last, jump in. I have been involved in mainstream kosher supervision for over 30 years and this is the basis for my comments to everyone here.

In no particular order, I will try to provide some kosher basics. I am not going to be able to go into detailed explanations since I can’t stop working for a couple of years to write it all. Besides, you can’t take a couple of years to read it all.

It is important to know that it takes many years of study to begin one’s proficiency in the kosher laws and many more to gain the practical knowledge that must go with it. Please consult an appropriate orthodox source for further explanations. Also note that I can not serve to be a total resource and am not comfortable deciding acceptability of agencies or products for individuals that I do not know. So, please don’t ask me to. You must find your own rabbi upon whom you may rely. Thank you.

Any processed food must have reliable kosher supervision for a kosher Jew to use it. There are currently, over 900 kosher agencies and certifiers around the world, plus, perhaps, even 1000’s more localized individuals that give certification. An unfortunately large percentage of them are not considered acceptable to the mainstream kosher world, including some of those that have been on some of the “reliable” kosher symbol lists. Please check them out first with a reliable orthodox source.

When obtaining information about kosher or any “orthodox” views, laws, etc., one, as with kashrus (the various aspects of kosher), must consult with a reliable orthodox rabbi. Even someone claiming to be orthodox, but unknown to you, should be checked upon. Often the books will have approbations in the front from leading rabbis. This can be a quick check, however, if you are not familiar with names in the orthodox world, again, please check.

No matter how logical or nice the information sounds, to one that is uninformed, especially if just beginning, there is no background knowledge for one to know what’s accurate and what’s not. The conservatives, for example, hold that certain fish are kosher, whereas the orthodox don’t. The reason in part, is that, yes, fish must have fins and scales. However, there are 4 different categories of scales. Only 2 conform completely with kosher requirements. The conservative position accepts some fish in the other 2.

If you offer a starving man a room full of gourmet food, all he wants to eat and for no charge, then tell him to enjoy everything, but to avoid those parts with the poison in them, what would he say? Probably, he’d ask which parts are those? I don’t know, you reply, but just don’t eat them. Do you think he should take the chance of putting poison into his body? Well, that’s the chance we take when we read from inappropriate sources. One may never know how many transgressions were caused by the misinformation. The poison isn’t worth it. No matter how good it seems.

As for cheese, all firm cheese is made from rennet, which is an enzyme that acts as a catalyst. That means it causes a process or react, but is not part of the result. Meaning, technically, it could be removed from the cheese. The removal isn’t practical, however, so it is left in. It is such a small amount and gives no added flavor to the cheese.

Although most cheese today is made from bacterial (vegetarian) rennet, which is grown on many different food bases which may or may not be kosher, some rennet is still from an animal and both kinds of rennet must be kosher to start with. One of the big problems is that, even when there is not enough heat to “cook” as we understand it, the sages have decided that the process of adding the rennet constitutes cooking and therefore, requires an orthodox Jew to add it to the mix. In fact, however, some cheeses like mozzarella, in addition to adding the rennet, are actually cooked at high temperatures. This leads to yet another difficulty. It is, in general, considered a problem for a kosher Jew to eat something totally cooked by a non-Jew. I’ll leave this for someone else to explain.

As for the milk itself, it usually requires kosher supervision from the time of milking and on, to be acceptable for use. There are many reasons for this, but adulteration is the main one. The United States is the only country that has any leniency within Jewish law regarding this issue. It is based on the strictly inforced Federal regulations, inspections, testing and significant penalties for adulteration. That means, if this less strict kosher supervision is used (and many people will only use the stricter one known as Cholev Yisroel), it has the supervision beginning at the dairy where the processing begins.

Why is processing so important? Because the equipment may be used for non-kosher processing as well as kosher. In such a case the equipment must be kashered, made kosher, under orthodox supervision, before kosher production may begin.

Kashering is an extremely complicated and sometimes, almost dangerous, area of kashrus. It must be done by or with an expert’s help. There are millions of different ingredients in the food industry. The same basic ingredient may be kosher or not, i.e. grape juice, and all ingredients must be acceptably kosher. If they are not, not only the product, but the equipment becomes not kosher. If the equipment is not kosher, with a very few specialized exceptions, nothing made with it is kosher. For example, if one takes a kosher hotdog, bun and condiments in order to have lunch, but cooks the hotdog in a non-kosher pot.... good-bye kosher.

As for ingredients, even ones that, in the past, were always considered kosher, with today’s technology, may be non-kosher or kosher. They may be kosher meat, dairy or parve and this all refers to the same named ingredient. It depends on how it’s made. It is very important, therefore, that the product has reliable supervision.

Quickly, without explanation, a sample of why reliable kosher certification is important:
*”Natural” may include insects, ground up earthworm and glandular extracts (as mentioned in a previous post) among many others.
*”Non-Dairy” usually is dairy unless certified kosher parve.
*A plain ”K” is not an acceptable kosher symbol as much as 95% of the time.
*”Pure” vegetable oil may contain lard.
* Not all ingredients are required to be listed.


I have not covered all the points that need covering, but, perhaps another time, I’ll add more. I regret that I am not able to take the responsibility to answer any questions at this point, but, also, perhaps at a later time I may be able to do so. I would encourage everyone to seek their own authority.

Some resources may be some of the kashrus agencies. You might try the big 4 acceptable ones: OU; OK; Star-K; Kof-K, information on all 4 of these, plus much more, may be found at
http://kashrusmagazine.com. Kashrus Magazine has special consumer alerts, helpful information and many other resources and links to explore. I strongly recommend that every kosher home have a subscription. It is like the Consumers Report of the kosher world, widely respected and accepted and is an independent (from all agencies) publication for kosher consumers.

A good source for books is http://www.eichlers.com. It is one of the largest resources for Judaica. You may contact them for suggested titles on any given topic, but you should explain the level of information you are seeking.

Always bear in mind that, ultimately, regardless of symbols, mistakes or recommendations, each individual is responsible for their own kashrus. Have a Great Shabbos.

I want to add some pieces to my previous post. Although I asked not to be sent questions at this time, if someone finds any problems with a kosher product, i.e. mislabeled, shows it has dairy but isn't marked as kosher and dairy, fake certifications, etc., please let me know.

Additionally, if there is a company interested in obtaining kosher certification, also, let me know. I will try to help guide the process in the right direction. This isn't meant for a local eatery or bakery, of course, but is meant for producers of ingredients, food products and the like.

For those of you in areas where your selection of kosher items is limited, that doesn't mean there aren't companies there that may be kosher candidates. And if there are it could mean access to more kosher products for you.

By the way, for the record, kosher specific food sales top 3-4 billon dollars annually with total kosher product sales, I believe I heard, in excess of $400 billion. This is the top growth segment in the food industry, showing an incredible 10-15% annual growth rate since the 1980's. Plus, 80% of the kosher consumers are NOT Jewish.

These are not only good reasons for a company to go kosher, but a good reason why, if you don't have much of a kosher selection at this time, you may find that changing soon. All the best to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Quote "If cheese is made with a kosher piece of ohr hakaiva"

This would seem to connote that only if B'Dieved it was done, but L'Chatchila not, like all other Issurim that we can't Mivatel L'Chatchila. The Madanai HAshulchun #100 also says its only B'Dieved. Frankly, I thought Kosher cheese was made out of synthetic rennet.

Rav Nissim HaCohen Writes:

Chazal enacted an edict against eating gentile cheese since it is usually curdled in the stomach lining of unkosher animals. Even if one knows that a certain cheese is made entirely with vegetarian ingredients it is still forbiden for consumption by this edict. However, if a Jew watches the entire process of cheesemaking from the time of milking on, the cheese is permited for consumption. If he only watches the cheesemaking but not the milking. the cheese may be eaten Bedi'avad, though Sepharadim permit it without reservations. However, one must still take precautions that the ripening cheese will not be switched with an unkosher one.

It's seems that there is no basar b'chalav here since there is no cooking. if the stomach lining used in the curdling is kosher, it appears that the cheese is acceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:
THAT IS DISGUSTING!! WHO IS OUT THERE MILKING BEAVER GLANDS??

There used to be a well-known pop (soda, cola, whatever you call it) that had beaver scrotum oil in it.

Now we may collectively say EWWWWWW. And this is why we make sure that what we eat is truly kosher.

Baruch Meir: I may have to come clean and tell you who I am. . . I was your upstairs neighbor back in 1994 - and you did travel 4 hours to come to my chasuna. By the way, every once in a while my husband pops on to Global Yeshiva as well.

quote:

2. rennet has the same classification as gelatin. The initial product has to come form a kosher animal, but it's considered so processed down that it is no longer classified as fleishig. Be aware, that not everyone holds that way.

Rivkaleah, I'm honored that you remember. But I know that many people came from a lot further away to be part of a very special simcha. I trust that you and your lovely family are doing well and remain so. Regards to all.

I've placed your quote above, in order to respond and clarify. If you look at my earlier post above, you'll see where I explain that rennet is a catalyst and by definition, a catalyst only facilitates the reaction but is not a part of it.

Rennet is a dovor ha-ma’amid (a material which gives the product its form), it is not botel (nullified) even in very small ratios. (Shulchan Oruch YD 87:11.) But rennet doesn't fall under Rav Chaim Ozer's psak where processed gelatin is no longer considered fleishig His psak generally stands alone in contrast to other rulings and mainstream kashrus does not hold by his ruling. There are some that, against the majority, rely on Rav Chaim's psak.

Based in part, on information from Rabbi Moshe Heinemann of the Star-K, I'll offer some further comments about cheese, non-Jewish cheese and rennet.

Chazal point out the natural phenomenon whereby hard cheese can only be made from the milk of a kosher animal. Milk of a non-kosher animal will not coagulate. Even if one adds only the smallest amount of non-kosher milk to a large vat of regular kosher milk.

Because of this fact fact, some Poskim permit using the milk from a non-Jewish farmer since it must be unadulterated to make cheese. However, another general kashrus consideration, even if the cheese is made from Cholov Yisroel, is the rennet. Rennet is an extract of the fourth stomach of a calf, rich in rennin, an enzyme which is used to curdle the milk in the cheese making process. If rennet comes from a non-kosher species or a kosher species not properly slaughtered, the cheese made from this rennet is never kosher.

Today, most kosher rennet used in cheese productions in America (Although, not necessarily so in Europe.) is a microbial rennet, which means that a bacterial-like organism was grown to have the same qualities as the natural animal enzyme.

Additionally, Chazal have decreed that the cheese of a non-Jew requires that the kosher rennet, (and some include the starter culture and other coagulation media, as well) must be put into the milk by a mashgiach.

Clearly, one can see that the rennet source and its addition to the cheese is crucial in kosher cheese making. Regardless if the cheese was made from Cholov Yisroel, a reliable on-site mashgiach is necessary for kosher cheese productions.

Further information may be found at
http://oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single/5035/
where Rabbi Gordimer from the OU gives an excellent overview of the whole process.

By the way, I must make a correction on my earlier post's statement about mozzarella being cooked. It should have said parmesan.

Quote "It's seems that there is no basar b'chalav here since there is no cooking."

Even though without cooking there is no Basar V'Chalav D'oraisah, there is still a Issur D'rabanan and would still apply bitul Issur L'Chatchila.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
Quote "It's seems that there is no basar b'chalav here since there is no cooking."

Even though without cooking there is no Basar V'Chalav D'oraisah, there is still a Issur D'rabanan and would still apply bitul Issur L'Chatchila.

I think Baruch Meir has settled the matter and that lechat'chila one may use kosher meaty rennet to make cheese.

Quote "I think Baruch Meir has settled the matter and that lechat'chila one may use kosher meaty rennet to make cheese."

I don't see where he says anything about L'Chatchila putting it in and why its not Mivatel Issur L'Chatchila.

quote:

"I think Baruch Meir has settled the matter and that lechat'chila one may use kosher meaty rennet to make cheese."

“I don't see where he says anything about L'Chatchila putting it in and why its not Mivatel Issur L'Chatchila."

Historically, rennet was considered kosher only when it was extracted from the stomach lining of kosher slaughtered calves. The issue of rennet and Basar B’Chalav (the prohibition of mixing milk and meat together) being one of the most complex and controversial issues in halacha, is discussed numerous times in the Talmud and is the subject of much controversy and disagreement among the commentaries. Some authorities said that, indeed, cheese was forbidden to Jews because of the way it is made! Others said no, the use of rennet does not affect the kashrut of cheese, because rennet no longer has the status of food, and instead is considered a “mere secretion” (peershah b’almah). Even when the subject was discussed, the Talmud says a rabbi, after a certain amount of time, “hayseo ledavar achayr,” meaning simply, he changed the subject.


Perhaps to help clarify the issue, it would be useful to quote from an article I referenced earlier, by the OU’s Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer.

How is cheese made kosher?

As with any food, all of the ingredients in the cheese as well as the equipment used during the manufacturing process must be kosher. However, a special prohibition makes kosher certification of cheese a bit more challenging: the ban on gevinat Akum (“non-Jewish cheese”), which means that cheese made by non-Jewish companies and/or individuals is not kosher.

What is the source for gevinat Akum?

The Talmud (Avodah Zarah 29b, 35a-35b) states that the sages of the Mishnaic period forbade eating cheese manufactured by non-Jews. Although the Talmud offers various reasons for this prohibition, most halachic authorities maintain that the ban was made because of the use of rennet in cheese making. Since rennet was traditionally derived from the lining of a calf’s stomach, Chazal forbade non-Jewish cheeses because of the likelihood that they contained rennet from calves that had not been slaughtered in accordance with halachah.

It is important to note that the prohibition against gevinat Akum is not at all related to the kosher regulations regarding milk (chalav stam and chalav Yisrael—unsupervised milk and milk under Jewish supervision). Those who consume chalav stam are fully bound to adhere to the prohibition against eating gevinat Akum. Gevinat Akum is deemed non-kosher under all conditions, rendering the utensils and cookware used in making and serving it non-kosher as well.

Can the miniscule amounts of rennet used in hard cheese render the product nonkosher?

A product containing a minuscule amount of a non-kosher ingredient is often regarded as kosher, as the non-kosher substance is batel, or nullified. However, rennet used in hard cheese cannot be batel because of the halachic axiom that a non-kosher ingredient that gives a product its form—called a davar hama’amid—is never nullified (Yoreh Deah 87:11). Even trace amounts of such an ingredient can affect the kosher status of a product. Rennet is one of the most potent food enzymes, and it is therefore used in hard cheese in minute amounts; nevertheless, it cannot be batel.


Aren’t some cheeses made from non-animal derived rennet?

In today’s world of advanced food technology, much of the rennet used is microbial, that is, artificial. Nevertheless, mainstream halachic literature posits that Chazal banned all cheese made by non-Jews, irrespective of the presence of animal rennet, as a precaution against the consumption of actual non-kosher animal rennet-based cheese (Rambam, Hilchot Ma’achalot Asurot 3:14 and Shulchan Aruch ibid., 115:2). Thus, cheese made from artificial rennet (as well as Portuguese hard cheese made from thistle-flower rennet) is not kosher when manufactured by non-Jews.

It should be noted that the bulk of today’s cheese manufactured in mainland Europe does contain animal rennet. Furthermore, lipase—an enzyme added to some cheeses to hasten the breakdown of fat and endow a more powerful flavor—is almost always animal-derived (lipase is extracted from the tongues of domesticated animals), although artificial lipase substitutes are becoming more widespread. Romano cheese is usually treated with goat, lamb or kid lipase, and blue cheese often contains calf lipase.

Animal rennet and lipase can be kosher, however. If the kosher source animal is slaughtered, de-veined, salted and processed according to kosher law, its rennet and lipase are fine for kosher use. (There is no halachic problem with using animal-derived enzymes in cheese [mixing meat and milk] since the amounts used are miniscule. Moreover, the enzymes are not cooked with the milk, and they are flavorless. Also, the davar hama’amid principle cited earlier only applies to non-kosher substances, and the enzymes are actually kosher.) Still, even cheese made with glatt kosher animal rennet and lipase is considered gevinat Akum when manufactured by non-Jews, as the sages created a general ban on such cheese.