We are moving in the next few days, so I will be without computer access for awhile. I probably will not have computer access up and running until after Pesach.

Just so you know that I'm not disappearing

Wishing you all a chag kosher vesameiach!

Gila, when will you be back?

Or "will you be back?"

I am back!!! Unfortunately, I had a LOT of trouble getting a computer, and then getting it set up... but I'm back now

Welcome back

Welcome back Gila!

Thank you.

Good to see you back Gila.

Welcome to you, Yossi!

Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 21:6 states that it is forbidden for a man to inquire about the welfare of a woman at all. Even though ואהבת לרעך כמוך certainly applies equally to men and women, however Chazal gave us guidelines for how we are meant to express ourselves.
Therefore, it seems to me that this thread is inappropriate.

As far as I can see, nobody enquired about Gila's welfare.

There are also probably sevoras to be meikil (anonimity, distance, impersonal contact etc.).

I don't know if you are a Rav of a Kehilla, but if you were, and a woman from your Kehilla greeted you, how would you respond?

I heard a ruling in a personal inquiry made by a user in another online forum that there is a difference between speaking about a computer user's nickname and the real person we [think] is behind that nickname...

Thus even if we believe we know the religion and gender of a GY nickname, is it even possible to transgress that halacha when refering to a nickname?

Would it also be significant that any GY posting is public, for all to see?

quote:

As far as I can see, nobody enquired about Gila's welfare.

The Achronim understand this to forbid the words "Shalom Aleichem".

quote:

There are also probably sevoras to be meikil (anonimity, distance, impersonal contact etc.)

The Maharshal writes that it is even forbidden to write in a personal letter to a man "and tell your wife that I asked about her". This is quoted and accepted by all the Achronim following him.

quote:

I heard a ruling in a personal inquiry made by a user in another online forum that there is a difference between speaking about a computer user's nickname and the real person we [think] is behind that nickname...

Thus even if we believe we know the religion and gender of a GY nickname, is it even possible to transgress that halacha when refering to a nickname?

Would it also be significant that any GY posting is public, for all to see?

I didn't find any grounds to be lenient, as the reason it is forbidden is because it leads to affection and familiarity between the sexes. This would seemingly be relevant even when using a nickname and even in public.
Of course if the person was lead to believe that he was corresponding with a man and it turned out to really be a woman he would be considered an "ones".

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I don't know if you are a Rav of a Kehilla, but if you were, and a woman from your Kehilla greeted you, how would you respond?

I'm not yet. But this is an excellent point that needs to be brought to people's awareness as it applies to most people in business relationships and neighbors as well.

It is certainly permitted to be polite. The issue is creating friendship, which is not appropriate between men and women who are not married to each other or close relatives. Therefore, the Taz permits a man to ask his friend about his wife's welfare if she was known to be ill. In this case the inquiry is for a practical purpose, not just for social friendship. Many Achronim permit "Good morning", considering it polite rather than affectionate. The Ezer MiKodesh permits saying "Mazal Tov" to the mother at a bris.
The Aruch HaShulchan permits a man to inquire about his sister, daughter and daughter-in-law, as he has a responsibility for their well being. Regarding the sister and daughter it would seem simple, as he may also have yichud with them and according to the letter of the law may touch them. However, the daughter-in-law is a chidush. Assuming it is accepted, one may apply the same logic to a community Rabbi who is responsible for his congregation.

The bottom line is that while in modern Western society it is accepted for men and women to socialize, it is not accepted by the Torah. In a situation where a man must interact with women, he must be extremely careful to trod the fine line between being polite and being friendly.

Also, the Maharshal writes that a man should not refer to a woman by her first name, even when writing to her husband.

I wanted to make it clear that these are Halachos, not just chumros.

B"H

Speaking of which, I remember being taught by my Rabbi (Rabbi Chayim Benayahu) that, in Yemen, a man never called his own wife by her first name, but rather made use of the expression, "Ya-Hea!" (Heb. יַא-הֵי), literally meaning, "O, you!" which was an example of true Hebrew etiquette. This phrase was often used by, both, Jewish men and women alike when addressing one another, without mentioning the other's name. For it was always held as improper to call one's spouse by his or her first name. Rather, they would coin a phrase, or nick-name, when calling out to the other. In this way, the name of one's spouse was mentioned only with a sense of awe and deep respect, no different than with children who refrain from calling their parents by their true names. (By the way, this form of etiquette was unique to the Jews of Yemen, and I have scarcely heard mention of the custom amongst other groups.)

P.S. - Of course, this is different from coining ordinary, deragatory nick-names to one's friend (such as "knuckle-head," or "stupid," or "silly," etc.) which has the censure of the Rabbis.

Sincerely,
David

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Peretz Moncharsh:
Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 21:6 states that it is forbidden for a man to inquire about the welfare of a woman at all. Even though ואהבת לרעך כמוך certainly applies equally to men and women, however Chazal gave us guidelines for how we are meant to express ourselves.
Therefore, it seems to me that this thread is inappropriate.

Thank you for your observation and while the Shulchan Aruch does state one must not enquire about the welfare of a wife. However while I am not very well versed in Halhochoes I wounder two things,

1 - Does the Even HaEzer you quoted refer to a single woman too? as it seems to me that the particular Halhochah you refered to is with regard not asking the husband how his wife is.

2 - Does this also refer to a brother / sister, yes I know as far Vehiyisam Nikeyin I should maybe have stated in my post that my greeting was aimed at my sister and not "Gila".

Would be intrested in clarification in regard to my two points.

1- I didn't see anything explicit, but it seems to me it should apply to any erva. The poskim write that all single girls are considered erva because they are niddos. Also, from the gemora it is apparent that it is forbidden even to inquire from a husband about his wife, and certainly from others. A husband would have been a reason to be lenient, probably assuming his involvement would prevent any inappropriate behavior.

2- the Aruch HaShulchan writes that it does not apply to a sister. Thank you for the clarification.

Welcoming Gila back after her absence is just basic menthshlikeit and good manners. In addition we owe her hakoras hatov for all the work she has put into this website. Any discussion of this being a halachik problem is utter nonsense.

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Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
Any discussion of this being a halachik problem is utter nonsense.

Discussion of Talmud is not utter nonsense. I think he made some good points.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
Welcoming Gila back after her absence is just basic menthshlikeit and good manners.

I think I made it clear that halacha has no objection to "mentchlichkeit and good manners", the issue is where exactly does one cross the border to something that is more than that.

quote:

In addition we owe her hakoras hatov for all the work she has put into this website.

That is certainly true, again the issue is how to express it properly. It is also certainly clear that hakoras hatov is not an excuse to violate the halacha.
The Gemora in Bava Metzia asks how could the 3 malochim have asked Avraham Avinu "Where is your wife Sora?" based on this halacha. They certainly owed her hakoras hatov for preparing them a meal.
Also, the Yad Efrayim asks how could Elisha have sent Geichazi to say "Shalom" to the Shunamis, despite the fact that he certainly owed her hakoras hatov for preparing him an attic room.

quote:

Any discussion of this being a halachik problem is utter nonsense.

If you want to debate halacha I would be more that happy to list the exact sources I based my writings on. See the Bach, Prisha, Beis Shmuel, Chelkas Mechokek, Taz, Pishcei Teshuva and Ezer MiKodesh on Even HaEzer 21:6. See also the Aruch HaShulchan 21:8. See Shut MaHaRaM Shik 53 and Minchas Yitzchok 8:156.
If you want to bring sources that contradict what I brought, I would be happy to hear them. Furthermore, I welcome hearing alternative explanations of the seforim I quoted. Also, you are welcome to challenge my judgment on where to draw the line between a polite greeting and a friendly one. This is the way of learning Torah.

However, calling a halacha from Shulchan Aruch "utter nonsense" with no sources to back you up is not constructive.

In any event, I apologize to any one I insulted. But I do feel that this is an important issue in halacha that many people are not aware of, and everyone should try to think of how it applies to their personal situation.