Rob,

When I said "sponging up" in reference to early reading, that is because such reading is chiefly AFFECTIVE (I mistakeningly wrote above "emotive") learning. Affective (NOT "Effective" learning, though it actually is the most effective learning for that age) is NONCOGNITIVE learning, meaning the learner will probably NOT understand, but merely parrot. So small children exposed to songs filled with content can sing those songs, but probably won't understand the content until much later.
Actually, as I'm writing this, I'm realizing that it is MUCH more efficient NOT to teach reading in an affective way because the learner will probably not no what he is saying & the experience will be meaningless. I realize that there are MANY texts that use this method such as teaching numbers, colours, roles all in BEAUTIFUL GRAPHICS, but it is much more productive to SKIP these texts until the 3rd grade & then teach them graded reading (highly recommended first text to teach is Dr. Suess' Hop on Pop).

I also want to make a strong plug for two audio cassette tape serious that I STRONGLY recommend:
Torah Tapes (Brooklyn) has in VERY easy English:
1) Childrens Stories (non-native English speakers can be assisted in understanding these narratives which are EXCELLENT as far as Judaics/Qodesh & also teach English language structure & vocabulary). These tapes are only a DOLLAR A PIECE!!!! My children STILL listen to them & we've had them for around 20 years (I mean they've been recycled down to our younger children). They have a lot of parashath haShavu'a and other narratives.
The higher level tapes are called Chassidic Tales & their level of sophistication is much higher with a much higher level of vocabulary.
Tapes & EDUCATIONAL computer games (Operation Neptune is wonderful for math) are great for teaching or practicing because they are NEUTRAL in feedback & don't get tired of repeating their messages.

As far as multiple languages, very early exposure to multiple languages IS useful for developing a later propensity to fluently knowing those languages and others later, but NOT IN WRITING until the 3rd grade. I think that AFFECTIVE SONGS would be good, stories are also good, but NOT WRITING. Needless to say, I think that multiple languages at home are highly beneficial. I've read that children who speak several languages benefit from this greatly, though I don't remember how (I think that translation for them is like rephrasing ideas). I DO agree that exposure to different languages is definitely "sponging up."
Something interesting about my own multi-language family is that when they meet other multi-language children there is a special connection that they don't have with just single-language children.

I would also ask your thoughts...

I think that children who are exposed to mixed languages is closer to a child who is exposed to multi-languages than just one large language because I've seen such children more easily adapt in one of those languages that was once merely a slight mixture. I think that I read that study on multi-language brain mapping, too.
One could argue the opposite, that since, say, one mixes Yehudith (any given Jewish language such as Jewish Bukharith, Tunisian, Yemenite, Yiddish et al) with English in such a way that s/he only uses NOUNS, THEN maybe their brains just look at such use as English with exotic nouns! I remember my son trying to explain to a secular American Jew that something wasn't acceptable behaviour so he called it "goyishe" and was SURE that this was English.

I would think that the brain would map differently only if the linguistic STRUCTURE would be changed from English and not that English would be merely peppered with NOUNS from other languages. best, ra'anan

quote:

NOT to teach reading in an affective way because the learner will probably not no what he is saying & the experience will be meaningless.

As one of my children in particular progressed from memorized bircas hamazon to actually reading from a bentcher, this principle is proven... they could sing it, but don't necessarily connect the reading with what should already be familiar.

I think this trend can also be seen for those children who learn the English alphabet as if there is one particular letter "elemeno" -- that if they are parroting back a song that was not enunciated for the letters L, M, N, and O.

Children who have two L1s (or two first languages) thus learning both concurrently, although they may seemingly progress in learning to speak more slowly, will actually be ahead of their peer group by far. If memory serves (and my books remain unpacked) a first language can be successfully learned before the age of 3. After the age of 3 then the child is now working on a second language. It is much easier for children to learn a second language than adults; their brains are more accepting and they are, as someone previously stated, like sponges. I personally believe that one could learn one subject in one language and another subject in another language; thus using more of the brain's potential. Therefore, one could master far more material by knowing more than one language (by knowing, I mean having fluency). I see only gain in having children learn in Yiddish as well as English.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Y. Kacev:
I understand Rivka, but why would'nt you want to send your child to the place where he will have the ability to grow most in his Torah learning? If he choses later on when he goes to high school to also concentrate on secular studies, there are many fine Yeshivos that excel in both areas. These are his important formative years, the Jewish education he would miss out on will be something he may not later be able to recover. The secular education will always be there for him to go into.

I'm afraid that coming from the background of the secular world has led me to fear ignoring the secular studies. One would think that as I've married and been married for more than 10 years, I would no longer feel quite so accountable to my parents; on the contrary, I still feel the need to have their respect and ensuring that my children have decent secular studies is one way.

Rivka; I understand what you are saying. However I believe there is not as great a gap between the quality of secular education in the schools we are discussing as you may fear. My experience with high school kids coming from both schools seem to indicate that the difference between them is minute at most and possibly non-existent.

So what is the difference in the quality of the limudei kodesh? Is one school truly better than the others? and on a side note, and perhaps my impetus to posting my question, are you aware of bullying being a problem in the schools and the community at large?

Rivka; I have seen significant difference not only in Torah knowledge between the students of these schools, but more importantly in their motivation and attitude towards learning.

As far as bullying is concerned I have several children who have gone to the area schools and so I am well aware of the problem.

There are several issues that have been missed in this thread.
1. Just because a school is "religious" it doesn't mean it's a good school, even for Torah. I've known of religious schools where there was so much bickering they had to shut it down.
2. Home schooling is also an option that hasn't been raised if the parents can do it.
3. A combination of homeschooling and "religious" school is also possible.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
2. Home schooling is also an option that hasn't been raised if the parents can do it.

Actually, it was raised by Raanan Elozory in this thread, when he said: "I see many Americans with kids in chedarim with NO SECULAR STUDIES AT ALL & they compensate, VERY NICELY, with tutors."

Sincerely,
David

quote:

There are several issues that have been missed in this thread.

Distance learning is also becoming more feasible.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
2. Home schooling is also an option that hasn't been raised if the parents can do it.



Actually, it was raised by Raanan Elozory in this thread, when he said: "I see many Americans with kids in chedarim with NO SECULAR STUDIES AT ALL & they compensate, VERY NICELY, with tutors."

Shalom David:

I think there is a lot more to Frum homeschooling than either "private tutors" or having a "cheder with no secular studies at all".


If one thinks about it, why should we assume that mitzvah of chinuch should naturally be done through a shaliach?

quote:

I also want to make a strong plug for two audio cassette tape serious that I STRONGLY recommend:
Torah Tapes (Brooklyn) has in VERY easy English:

Are these audio tape sources cataloged online yet?

Are there particular tape titles you recommend?

Dear Rav Kacev:

Do you happen to have any 2nd hand reports of how equally well students from the two different schools did in secular subjects in a secular environment?

Not discounting the accurate positive assessment of the students from the preferable school (from yiddishkeit perspective) when doing secular studies.... Rav Kacev's view of this measurements was by definition in the secular studies department of a top religious high school!

It is thus possible, but unlikely, that this top religious high school is not known for its top excellence in secular studies, and thus the good students from the religious feeder school were very well equipped for the secular studies of this high school environment.

And thus it is possible that there might be an environment with a large student population in which it might not have been such a natural fit (either with the culture of the secular subject teachers or the coherent secular studies track).

It is also possible that since top students thriving in religious and secular studies in a top religious high school would not "sell out" and go to some college with a bunch of ivy on campus... that there simply is no good datapoint to evaluate how well their secular studies measured up among age-peers from a less-yiddishkeit-focused background.

In actuality we have had students from our school go on to highly regarded universities such as the University of Chicago, and Northwestern University. Some finished in the top of their class,and are working in prestigous law firms, as doctors and engineers among other professions.

Dear Rivkaleah,
I only have a few moments right now, so have only read your opening question and not what has followed. Forgive me if I repeat anything already said.

DEFINITELY send your children to the place where the children believe and behave as you would like yours to. Otherwise, they WILL pick up beliefs and behaviors you won't like. You can always supplement with additional academic learning at home.

I'm assuming you absolutely cannot find a school that combines both. I don't know how much time you have, but would you consider starting your own school? You don't need any training or certification to open a private school. You can do it in your own home, and invite only a few students other than your own children. You and their parents can even take turns teaching different days, different subjects, etc. Simply contact the office of non-public schools in your state (part of the education department). Another option would be to home-school.

I've posted on this topic before, if you'd like to check listings under my profile. Also, feel free to email me with questions. I have a lot of experience with this myself, having tried all options!

Some of our schools, such as in Seattle, students are fast tracked into college because the students are consistently scoring higher than in non-Jewish schools.

It is my opinion that there really isn't such a thing as "religious" education and "secular" education for a Jew, when it is done right. It is impossible to teach brachot for foods without having to learn something about botany and horticulture. It is impossible to teach Bereshit without teaching cosmology and physics. It is impossible to teach corbanot and shmita without teaching about animal husbandry, reproduction and ecology. So anyone doing the job right, in a "religious" school is compelled to have skills in the arts, sciences and humanities.

quote:

It is my opinion that there really isn't such a thing as "religious" education and "secular" education for a Jew, when it is done right. It is impossible to teach brachot for foods without having to learn something about botany and horticulture. It is impossible to teach Bereshit without teaching cosmology and physics. It is impossible to teach corbanot and shmita without teaching about animal husbandry, reproduction and ecology. So anyone doing the job right, in a "religious" school is compelled to have skills in the arts, sciences and humanities.

How true this is. I grew up learning that anyone sitting on the Sanhedrin had to have a complete knowledge of all languages as it was forbidden to hear testimony via a translator lest something get lost as they say and an unjust verdict result, and a complete knowledge of all the sciences. To my best humble understanding their was no such thing as expert testimony, these iluyi of the Sanhedrin were the experts in all the field. I guess thats why there were no Machlokes when we had a Sanhedrin because the cream of our scholars had the both Torah and Secular knowledge and could render a verdict without worrying like in todays courts you have experts and counter experts dragging things out.

Personally, call me foolish if it be so, but I feel that their is no Sanhedrin yet until we have a Sanherdrin composed of these very same elite inteligentsia of our scholars.

TO ROB
Affective learning can INITIALLY be a meaningless song, but later meanings are built onto it. This is true w/learning colours, numbers and, lehavdil, parashath haShavua' through songs. So affective learning is very important and is our type of learning (because as infants/toddlers we perceive things on a very simplistic level and maybe even incorrectly.
kt, ra'anan

but later

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

NOT to teach reading in an affective way because the learner will probably not no what he is saying & the experience will be meaningless.

As one of my children in particular progressed from memorized bircas hamazon to actually reading from a bentcher, this principle is proven... they could sing it, but don't necessarily connect the reading with what should already be familiar.

I think this trend can also be seen for those children who learn the English alphabet as if there is one particular letter "elemeno" -- that if they are parroting back a song that was not enunciated for the letters L, M, N, and O.

To ROB:
Torah Tape titles (STRONGLY RECOMMENDED):

1) Childrens Stories (parasha & narratives of dramatic historical Jewish events; English is NOT so good, interdispersed w/Yiddish, but kids pick it up). There are a least 100 tapes and that's $100 for those 100 tapes. If you aren't sure, take 10 & try them out.

2) Chassidic Tales (MUCH more sophisticated with excellent English, also dramatic historical Jewish events & certainly not just chassidic, more than 100 tapes, again, maybe try 10).

3) 'Ein Ya'aqov (on Mesekheth Berakhoth) is a much more advanced level. It consists of an anthology of deep commentaries, but you'll need more Hebrew & Aramaic & Yiddish vocabulary. There are a least 100 tapes.

4) Mussar as a movement has unfortunately failed (at least in Israeli yeshivoth). It is an important tool for self-analysis of middoth. My rebbi said that Israeli Lithuanian yeshivoth that consider themselves to be heirs of the movement are far from doing it justice in allotted time & review & this is weakening observance. A powerful solution is
MILLER TIME! (that is, R. Avigdor MILLER z'l!). He doesn't shy away from issues & spent a life time bringing effective focus to self-improvement through his 90 minutes tapes. Check out #610 the Ten Commandments of Marriage.

5) As far as I know, Torah Tapes & R. Avigdor Miller tapes are NOT available on line.
Torah Tapes tel # is 718-438-3904, I think you can go online to find the Miller tape address (though he was personally against putting his tapes online).
I have a feeling that Torah Tapes will never go online.
best,
ra'anan

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

I also want to make a strong plug for two audio cassette tape serious that I STRONGLY recommend:
Torah Tapes (Brooklyn) has in VERY easy English:

Are these audio tape sources cataloged online yet?

Are there particular tape titles you recommend?

quote:

(though he was personally against putting his tapes online).

I wonder if he really knew what it means to be online, that the internet, which to many of us is simply a way of addressing packets of data between computers, is _not_ necessarily the way the web is hyped to be.

But if we fail to harness this powerful capability which Hashem has entrusted to our generation, we will be held accountable!

Perhaps if R. Avigdor Miller zt"l really knew that his powerful Torah Tapes messages would be heard, and perhaps would only be kept viable and useful, if uploaded onto an audio archive, he would have not put on such limits?

Why should I spend $100 on tapes which I can better use for other mitzvos, and I am not even sure if my cassette tape player still works from so many years ago, and I don't spend time in my car (where I know the tape player can eat tapes) when I can dowload an MP3 from 613.org and pause and restart as necessary, only having to pay for far more bandwidth than I need?

If a DSL line costs $15/month, that same $100 can purchase 7 months of internet capability suitable for even seeing video, and having truly interactive discussion with my fellow yidden, or type-chat to learn with my fellow yidden while listening to a pre-recorded tape!