David ben Avraham,
I may be posting this a little late but I just wanted to expound on the idea of homeschooling. In the US, homeschooling has become a real educational system in its own right. It is not just mere tutoring. There are several curricula to which one could subscribe. The programs will have dedicated books, supplies and resources associated with the education of the children etc. They would even provide tutoring and testing services. So when I say homeschooling as an option, I don't mean tutoring.

Nevertheless, the homeschooling option presumes that there is a "stay at home" parent who can supervise and help the children. The beauty of this is that the children can learn both academics and Torah at their own pace in a relatively structured environment. If the kids are already getting a good dose of Torah education this could be a rich educational experience for them.

Several Christian communitites have their own homeschool programs which they have operated successfully for decades. The homeschooled children generally score higher in SATs etc than their traditionally schooled counterparts.

Regarding homeschooling, I understand that there are various discplines of thought: unschooling, school at home, and several other terms I cannot remember.

And I understand that there are some innovative charter schools which cater to providing the superstructure of a private school and central transcript / portfolio repository but with all the freedom for a parent to recognize what is the best curriculum for their children adapting as frequently as appropriate to new interests.

Moshe, or anyone:
Have you heard any general sense of how much more efficient time spent in homeschooling is compared to the number of hours in a a traditional school model, to achieve a somewhat comparable measure of success on a traditional school's terms, such as SAT?

For example, if a Frum day school takes a total of 10 hours per day in classes and socializing, and a Frum Homeschooler serious about studing can accomplish all the same measurable results in Torah and secular testing, but with around 5 hours of actual learning time, leaving more time for other worthwhile pursuits, are such time cost comparisons discussed anywhere? Or a comparable case from other groups?

In times when rich families had private tutors for their children, if I understand correctly, is there any record of how much actual learning time was spent?

Rob,

The home school associations have plenty of data on that. It is true that traditional school spends a lot of time "babysitting" so homeschooling, when done properly, is very efficient. Kids can cover two grades or more in a single year. I think the simple efficiency contributes to their superior scores.

You are correct about the "un-schooling". In my diatribe, however, I didn't have unschooling in mind. I have mulled the idea of developing a home school program for Frum Jews. However, as I mentioned earlier, academic work for Jews can emanate and be integrated with Torah. One cannot learn about brachot for food without learning about botany and horticulture. One cannot teach Bereshit without tackling cosmology, relativity, pangea etc. I suspect others have established curricula that reflect these concepts.....although I'm not aware of them.

Although I've been professor in medical schools and graduate schools, my knowledge of education at the elementary level is drawn from experience in my own children's education. We homeschooled them when I was still married and it worked very well.

The only disadvantage of homeschooling, in my view, is that it does not teach social skills necessary outside the home. In addition, it is based on the assumption that the parent knows HOW to teach.

Joseph,

The social skills "card" has been trumped against homeschooling for ages. The actual data shows that homeschooled kids are socially better adjusted and more responsible than kids sent to school.

About parents knowing how to teach; it's theoretically a problem, but the parents who homeschool are a self selected group who feel that they can do a better job. Parents who have this perspective and motivation usually can do a better job than any educational system. In Yiddishkeit we don't have any trouble accepting that a parent will teach Torah to his/her children but we are afraid the parent might do a lowsy job of teaching multiplication and algebra. All homeschooling parents I know are at least college educated. Many of them have PhDs etc. These a people who are sensitized enough about education they would never shortchange their children.

Having said that, the converse may be true. Just because someone has a certificate, it doesn't mean he knows how to teach. I have many degrees after my name and yes, I've been taught by some worthless teachers and professors.

Finally, the purpose of the parents is to be a facilitator. Today, resources for homeschoolers are abundant. In local school districts, homeschoolers still have the same rights as every kid in those school districts. They can use the libraries, teachers, ball courts and everything in the school district. Don't forget the parents are already paying for them. The homeschool "culture" is a pretty close and supportive community. By virtue of its structure it's supportive of parents who may be lacking in one area or another.

Again, homeschooled kids have higher scores and are socially better adjusted and more responsible than kids sent to school.

Moshe,

The question is of great interest to me. If G-d willing I will have children one day, I will be tempted to do much of the education myself, at least at the elementary school level (Both my wife and I work in education). But I will also loathe to have them suffocated in the home. What about friends or learning how to deal with peers? How can that develop at home?

Joseph

Joseph,

Home schoolers are not stuck at home all day. They go to libraries, fairs, swimming splashdowns, they can join ball teams, chorale, 4H and horseback riding, dressage, scouts and brownies, bands....they can do everything that "sent to school" kids can do, depending on your community. They will get plenty of socialization in all these activities.

That's why I think it could be a perfect solution to a Jewish education problem.....if the other kids on the "group" are Jewish too. For example, 10 Jewish families can easily have a homeschooling program supporting one another. Such a program could be even richer than actually having a Jewish day school.

quote:

The only disadvantage of homeschooling, in my view, is that it does not teach social skills necessary outside the home. In addition, it is based on the assumption that the parent knows HOW to teach.

You have raised two points.

For the first, let me point out that our common worry is picking up bad behaviors from peers in school either from those too frum that they must come from fanatical homes, or too lax, they will quickly flush away the protections built into our home life free from materialistic temptations.

Hence what you are anticipating may well be the cure!

Furthermore, why should serious Torah study be considered play time?


For your second critique, alavi the schools I went to should not have assumed that just because someone has been employed as a teacher means they know how to teach.

Even if education were one size fits all, I have had college professors who must have been great researchers, and high school teachers who must have had some redeeming qualities they treasured so much we never even saw them.

The difference is the parent has a mitzvah of chinuch, and to assume that a shaliach is a better educator than a dedicated parent who knows their children really well, is not necessarily a valid assumption.

Surely there are great educators, and I have also had some really great teachers. I think overall one slightly bad apple authoritative role model can do far more damage than the good of very many mediocre acceptable teachers, and for many families, putting children at any risk is unthinkable.

At least in public schools, strong teachers unions and employment law legal battles and penalties, it can be impossible to get rid of a dangerous teacher.

What about the children's social skills?

Also, wouldn't there be a problem in Limudai Kodesh where not always is the parent that's available is skilled enough to teach Mishnayos and Gemarah properly.

Rav Chaim,
We've already covered the social skills issue. However, not having a parent who knows Gemara well, is an issue. This thread started as a situation in which Torah good learning was available but there was a question as to whether children should be sent to public school for academics. So it children can be taught in homeschooling, that would cover the academics.

Regarding social skills and homeschooling, can we learn anything from Avraham Avinu fleeing to a cave to escape Nimrod, yet coming out through the cave-schooling environment well equippped to traverse diplomatic circles, such as mastering the subtle and the necessary with Efron of the Hitites, and also being our role model for loyalty to innkeepers, and numerous other social examples?

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Rav Chaim,
We've already covered the social skills issue. However, not having a parent who knows Gemara well, is an issue. This thread started as a situation in which Torah good learning was available but there was a question as to whether children should be sent to public school for academics. So it children can be taught in homeschooling, that would cover the academics.

Moshe
read from the begining again, the original question had nothing to do with public schools.
the shaila is if she should send her children to a cheder with their traditionally limited limudei chol and primary emphasis on limudei kodesh with children from homes that do not allow television etc, or a more centrist school that accepts children from families that allow the children to watch television and has a more balanced limudei kodesh and limudei chol.
nothing about public schools.

MK Fink,
My mistake. In that case if the parents do not know Gemara we do have a problem of Torah education. My home school scenarios presumed that the children were getting adequate Torah learning and the academics could be handled by homeschooling.

quote:

Originally posted by Rivkaleah:
Is it preferable to send your child to a school that has the general environment which you would like to have - with excellent limudei chol academics, but the yiddishkeit of the student body is less than what you have at home (ie. student body watches t.v., movies, etc)?
or is it preferable to send your child to a school that has the yiddishkeit that you would like, but the limudei chol is weak? why?

This was the original shaila; and it deserves direct consideration.
As for sending children to a school where children watch television I would suggest that you consider this question.
Do the characters in these television programs make achronos brochos after the eat?
If the answer is no then consider what this means to your children. As parents we want a chinuch that will teach our children to live as jews, we also want them to want to live as jews. If the children see keeping mitzvos as normal it is much easier. If they are watching television, or attending public school functions the adults that are teaching them and therefore have implied moral authority are living a different version of normal. This amgiguity is a disservice to children that should be considered.
mkf

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Joseph,

Home schoolers are not stuck at home all day. They go to libraries, fairs, swimming splashdowns, they can join ball teams, chorale, 4H and horseback riding, dressage, scouts and brownies, bands....they can do everything that "sent to school" kids can do, depending on your community. They will get plenty of socialization in all these activities.
.

Any of these activities that are using community (including public school) resources would create insurmountable problems for frum families because of mixed gender. kol isha for chorale and tznius for swimming to mention the most obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by MosheYisraeli:
Rob,

The home school associations have plenty of data on that. It is true that traditional school spends a lot of time "babysitting" so homeschooling, when done properly, is very efficient. Kids can cover two grades or more in a single year. I think the simple efficiency contributes to their superior scores.

You are correct about the "un-schooling". In my diatribe, however, I didn't have unschooling in mind. I have mulled the idea of developing a home school program for Frum Jews. However, as I mentioned earlier, academic work for Jews can emanate and be integrated with Torah. One cannot learn about brachot for food without learning about botany and horticulture. One cannot teach Bereshit without tackling cosmology, relativity, pangea etc. I suspect others have established curricula that reflect these concepts.....although I'm not aware of them.

Although I've been professor in medical schools and graduate schools, my knowledge of education at the elementary level is drawn from experience in my own children's education. We homeschooled them when I was still married and it worked very well.

The original author had no problem with sending her child to a regular jewish school. her question was which one.
how does this discussion of home schooling answer her question?

Regarding homeschooling rules, restrictions, and resources.
A brief review of homeschool homepages indicates that this is neither simple or consistant.
Every state makes it's own education law, and every school district has it's own policy.
I am told that jewish families in baltimore have been succesful working with in the framework of the state of maryland. New York state has a very complicated and burdensome system that requires frequent testing of the children and evaluation of the education provided by the parent. Under NYS law if the Bd. of Ed. employee that evaluates your homeschool systems decides there is in insufficiency they can declare it insufficient and have your kids in public school the next day. State ed law does not provide for an appeals process so your only venue is to file a lawsuit. If course you could try to get your kids into a Jewish school at this point. That would of course be more difficult once everything has gone wrong. This does not sound promising. It would also expain why there are very few home-schoolers in New York, compared to places like Baltimore.

quote:

Any of these activities that are using community (including public school) resources would create insurmountable problems for frum families because of mixed gender. kol isha for chorale and tznius for swimming to mention the most obvious.

MK Fink,
I was not advocating that Jewish kids be sent to these activities. I was giving examples of activities available which a Jewish family could pick and choose from. Jews are not the only ones who separate genders in swimming and chorale. There are girls' chorales and marching bands etc, girl scouts and brownies.

MK Fink,
In an earleir post, I mentioned that states in the Northwest and the South have extensive homeschooling communities and their local governments support them. Different states have different laws, but the farther west and south you go, the more homeschool friendly the states tend to be.

Having said that, this nation has a long history of people wanting to educate their own children for religious reasons, be they Mormons or Amish etc. Most states care that the chidren's scores are up to par and indeed homeschooled children do better. Most states in the west kind of like homeschoolers because they tend to be more disciplined and they keep down the census at the crowded schools. They are only too eager to help. I guess NY and other Eastern seaboard states feel that the best education comes from the state, not from the family.

quote:

Do the characters in these television programs make achronos brochos after the eat?

You mean its not to be so frum as to avoid having Hashem's name heard in the house of the cartoon-watcher, or should the text of the "SAP" channel be inadvertently printed out and not treated with respect?

Why does the OU, after their annual Kinnos service webcast, turn off the webcast before starting Mincha? I don't assume they don't recite Mincha prayers just because its not webcast.

But I do have reason to believe everything else about the behavior of the characters on the webcast is proper and consistent with my values, and probably good reason to think that the imaginary characters on TV are not acting in accordance with my community standards.

Still I think it takes an awareness which you are assuming to exist to think that lack of seeing a bracha being said by a TV character will so endanger our childrens' commitment to Torah standards which they know for themselves.