One may not dish out the soup while it is still on the heat source, nor put any back. Provided the soup is still warm (for Sefardim it must be still Yad Soledes Bo, around 45 degrees Celcius), it may be returned (assuming it had been completely boiled in the first place).

Quote" it depends whether it's kli sheni or kli shlishi. If you are using a ladle on the side (as most civilized people do), then the ladle is kli sheni and the soup bowl is kli shlishi. So there is no cooking involved in your last drop of soup in the bowl."

A ladle is a Machlokes if it's a Kli Sheni, since you're not pouring it into the utensil, but drawing the liquid while it's in the Kli Rishon. Second even if the ladle's a Kli Sheini, the pouring into the bowl would not be a Kli Shlishi, but an Eiroi (pouring from) Kli SHeini, which has a law of a Kli Sheini. Liquids that were cooked and cool down is also a Maclokes if there's cooking on it, so we're Meikel in a Kli SHeini, but if the ladle is a Kli Rishon, pouring into the bowl would be an Eiroy (pouring from) a Kli Rishon, which cooks like a Kli Rishon for a peel's worth (Kidai Klipah) which would leave this as prohibited.

But RAv Moshe has a Kulah regarding making a 2nd tea, that would apply here, that since we hold mainly like the Shita that there is no cooking after cooking by liquids. That's why the RAmah permits doing it if the liquid is still lukewarm, even though it's Halachikly considered cold once it drops below Yad Soledes Bo. So since here your intention is not to cook up the residue, so you need not to worry.

Rav Chaim,
So going back to Rob's soup; it is okay for him to pour more soup in the the ramaining residue, not because it's kli shlishi but because the residual soup has already been cooked once and cooked liquids cannot be re-cooked?

quote:

residual soup has already been cooked once and cooked liquids cannot be re-cooked?

Well this thread is about minhag -- I was describing the custom of drinking the last drop of soup out of a bowl as if it were a glass.

Perhaps drying the bowl with a piece of challah to get to the last drop would also help.

Rav Chaim - isn't there also a difference between water and other liquids?

And regarding a ladel, is the machlokes that when immersing the ladle such that it is like a floating boat, and then the liquid pops back over, is a type of stirring?

If instead we take the ladle like an ice cream scoop or melon baller, and roll it into the soup, I think we might be able to slice out a portion of liquid without stirring?

Rob,
If the vat of soup has been removed from the fire, does stirring matter?

quote:

If the vat of soup has been removed from the fire, does stirring matter?

I don't think its an issue. But I still remembered my question about whether a ladle could be used without stirring.

Quote "because the residual soup has already been cooked once and cooked liquids cannot be re-cooked?"

Well, we accept that it could be re-cooked as a Chumrah, though it's the Rama's Chaumrah, so it must be kept. But we don't have to keep the Chumrah only as in much that your intent is to mix the liquid with the hot water, not if you couldn't care if it was there or not (Davar Sh'eina Mischaven V'lo Ichpus Ley) and your only not wiping it out because of convenience.

Quote "Rav Chaim - isn't there also a difference between water and other liquids?"

Not that I'm aware of.


The problem with a ladle is not stirring, like Moshe Y said that as long as it was not on the fire (and it's fully cooked,) then stirring is not a problem.

The problem is, does it make it a Kli Sheini. The reason why a Kli SHeini is different than a Kli Rishon, though both is Yad Soledes BO, is that the walls of the utensil is cold and is constantly cooling off the food. A Kli Rishon, the walls of the pot is heated by fire, thus reinforcing the heat. When your dipping the ladle in the pot, though if you don't leave it there that it becomes boiling from the pot to become a real Kli Rishon onto itself and reinforce the heat, yet it definitely warms the walls of the ladle to say that it doesn't actively cool down the soup either. Hence the Machlokes whether it's a Kli Rishon or Sheini (in my humble opinion the reason of the Machlokes.)

I heard directly from Rabbi Moshe Meir Weiss, Shlita [author of Passionate Judaism ] that it is interesting to note that the Hebrew letters of the word "Minhag" - Mem, Nun, Hey, Gimmel - is also the same letters, just backwards, as the word "Gehinnom". A custom is so powerful that one should not play games with them.

Sam, very cool! thank you for sharing that!

It is an interesting thought. You're welcome.

I know this thread has been quiet a long time, but I thought I'd add something.

I remember reading that there are certain foods that retain heat in such a way, that even if you pour them from one keli to another, the second keli retains the status of keli rishon. I think its food like onion that does this.

There is an opinion that solid, non-pourable foods retain their ability to cook in a kli sheini. Furthermore, the Mishna Berura brings the opinion of the Chaye Adam that even a liquid in a kli sheini can cook if it is hot enough to scald.
There are also those who disagree with both of these opinions.