Our toddlers go to bed before sundown on Friday. We understand that we can bring in Shabbat early, and do so in order to instill a sense of joy for Shabbat in our children at a young age. It allows us to light the candles with them, say kiddush with them, eat a festive dinner together before they need to go to bed, etc.

We've also been getting them excited about Sukkot starting on Shabbat this year, and I just realized this could be a problem.

Can we also bring in Sukkot early? Can we do kiddush in the sukkah, say "L'Shaiv B'Sukkah", etc., before sundown?

I appreciate any quick response to this issue. Thank you.

You need to wait to definite nightfall

Thank you.

Does that prohibit us from saying Shabbat kiddush in the Sukkah, then eating in the home? Something to give the kids a little taste of the sukkah tonight, and then we could all say "L'Shaiv" etc. tomorrow morning?

You shouldn't.
If you make Kiddush , then you're accepting the day, and since it includes Sukkes, you would need to include it in kiddush, which you need to wait 'till night.

Argh. So this week, I have to tell the kids, "I'm sorry, we're not welcoming in Shabbat until you're asleep. So you miss out on lighting candles, kiddush, getting blessed by Daddy, challah, and the special Shabbat dinner mama's preparing, because this special holiday you've been looking forward to means we can't welcome in Shabbat as we always do?"

Something's just wrong there Isn't that making Sukkot more important than Shabbat, in that its existence can change the way we celebrate and rejoice in Shabbat?

quote:

Originally posted by saulres:
Argh. So this week, I have to tell the kids, "I'm sorry, we're not welcoming in Shabbat until you're asleep. So you miss out on lighting candles, kiddush, getting blessed by Daddy, challah, and the special Shabbat dinner mama's preparing, because this special holiday you've been looking forward to means we can't welcome in Shabbat as we always do?"

No, you make an exception for the special day and allow them to stay up a little later than usual.

Or, for example on Rosh Hashanah, when my husband comes in pretty late, I just have the kids dip their apples in honey while he is still in Shul. That makes them happy because that's what they learnt about in school, and it makes me happy to put them to bed at a normal hour. It's sort of like a "Mock Seder".

quote:

You shouldn't.
If you make Kiddush , then you're accepting the day, and since it includes Sukkes, you would need to include it in kiddush, which you need to wait 'till night.

Dear Rav Chaim:

Other than the fact that its wrong how do we know that we cannot reason it through thusly:

Since we know we can bring in Shabbos early (such as during summertime late sunset) which puts Shabbos restrictions upon us as soon as we accept Shabbos... when Shabbos coincides with Yom Tov, if we wish to bring in Shabbos early, Yom Tov comes in with it, for the same reason that we can combine them in the same kiddush.

However just like when bringing in Shabbos early one still must recite Shema again later that night after the appropriate time, there are some aspects of the Yom Tov which cannot yet be fulfilled until the actual required start time.

Your answer before seems to indicate that there is no aspect of the Yom Tov that can be brought in early, not even the kiddush.

I understand why one cannot take away from the 2nd day of Yom Tov by eating a late Seuda Shelishis, but I don't quite understand why we cannot take away a small piece of Friday and add to it the Holiness of Yom Tov especially when it coincides with Shabbos, we we can add to that Friday some of the Holiness of Shabbos!

I'd like to better understand the principles that are at work which went into your thoughtful guidance.

And for extra credit....

Yom Kippur seems to be more like Shabbos (Shabbos of all Shabbos) than like Yom Tov. If one wanted to bring in Yom Kippur early, would it be possible?

how do we know that we cannot reason it through thusly:

Since we know we can bring in Shabbos early (such as during summertime late sunset) which puts Shabbos restrictions upon us as soon as we accept Shabbos... when Shabbos coincides with Yom Tov, if we wish to bring in Shabbos early, Yom Tov comes in with it, for the same reason that we can combine them in the same kiddush.

However just like when bringing in Shabbos early one still must recite Shema again later that night after the appropriate time, there are some aspects of the Yom Tov which cannot yet be fulfilled until the actual required start time.

Your answer before seems to indicate that there is no aspect of the Yom Tov that can be brought in early, not even the kiddush.

I understand why one cannot take away from the 2nd day of Yom Tov by eating a late Seuda Shelishis, but I don't quite understand why we cannot take away a small piece of Friday and add to it the Holiness of Yom Tov especially when it coincides with Shabbos, we we can add to that Friday some of the Holiness of Shabbos!

I'd like to better understand the principles that are at work which went into your thoughtful guidance.

And for extra credit....

Yom Kippur seems to be more like Shabbos (Shabbos of all Shabbos) than like Yom Tov. If one wanted to bring in Yom Kippur early, would it be possible? You can view the message here http://globalyeshiva.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&m=8901046172&f=728100487-->
Since the Seuda needs to be at night (just like Pesach,that we learn the Gezarah Shava of "TU TU." Just like the Matzah can only be eaten by night, so to the Kazayis/Beitzah of Sukkos night needs to be eaten only after nightfall.) The Kiddush, since it needs to be done in the place and time of the S'udah, so it also neees to be done at night. If one wants to Daven early and accept on himself tehe Kedusha of Yom Tov before, it's permitted, but he just can't eat/ make Kiddush until night. Other YT (besides the first days of Sukkos and Pesach) you can accept it early and eat accept for shvuos that needs to finish 7 COMPLETE weeks (TAmim)

Actually, the Biur Halacha in 639:3 writes that theoretically kiddush could be said before night just like on Shabbos. However, since our custom is to say "leishev baSukka" before "shehechiyanu" the first night, and leishev baSukka may not be said before night for the reasons Rav Chaim mentioned, technically speaking one may not make kiddush before night.
Even in the Biur Halacha's theoretical case, one could not say "hamotzi" before night because that would require saying "leishev baSukka".