as strange as this sounds though i do know of three consertive rabbi's who are shemor mitzvot. from what i can see i can say that though what i don't see i can't speak on no different then from an orthodox rabbi. however that is only 3 consertive rabbis out of how many. then it becomes 2 cosertive rabbi since one in a sense spoke opnely in a away of given permission to drive on shabbat.

now in israel where i hear the reform and consertive are more traditional then in the U.S. i really can't speak on because i don't know any reform or consertive rabbi over there. so yes i lump them together.

one of the consertive rabbi reclaim or claim one of the chassidic thrones. but for a while acted as a consertive rabbi. so now was he really consertive rabbi, or an orthodox rabbi running a consertive shul? there is a difference.

In re what to do with a action from a conservative bet din.

Lets take the more neutral example. A man gives a ring to a women in front of two valid witnessess (who have never be disqualified by making a living playing cards or betting on pigeon races). No rabbi or state official is present. They now what to register the marriage. On one hand no one will register the marriage but you will not find anyone who will allow the woman to marry someone else without a bill of divorce.

Now you wish to state that three jews who have not been disqualified are disqualified as witnesess because they mislead the jewish people in regards to some other halacha (maybe like telling soldiers to refuse order or something or speak to chabadnikim when someone puts them in Cherem? or saying that if there is no other alternative, then they wont mention is it wrong to ride on the Shabbat) they somehow are no longer valid to do what any three jews can do?
Accepted that the State of Israel does not recognize such conversions nor should the Jewish community accepted the conversion but do say that her children aren't jewish or that he does not have to do any mitzvot is a different story.

Aryeh Shore

the concept of three of Israel the thoughts is three observent from Israel, not just any three of Israel. in fact let this appear more simple a converion. tell me one Orhtodox community which accpet a reform or a consertive conversion.

ok- now this gets worse. We have not had children ourselves. my husband proposes divorcing me, and marrying someone willing to have a child. She is "finding herself" and while she wants a child doesnt know if she wouldd be around to take care of it all the time and my husband says that you really need more thatn 2 people to care for a child and that this would solve our desire to have kids- at least it would be biologically one of ours. I am over 47 and he feels the chance of having a child with problems (medical ) woul dbe too great and we are just not equiped to handle something like that. I feel devestated of course and hurt but if it is an acceptable thing, I guess I will do it- he also proposes that once the child is born, later on, he can always divorce the 2nd wife and remarry me if there is a problem with her staying in the USA long term- she likes to travel abroad alot. Comments?

quote:

Originally posted by sarah green:
ok- now this gets worse. We have not had children ourselves. my husband proposes divorcing me, and marrying someone willing to have a child. She is "finding herself" and while she wants a child doesn't know if she would be around to take care of it all the time, and my husband says that you really need more than 2 people to care for a child, and that this would solve our desire to have kids- at least it would be biologically one of ours. I am over 47 and he feels the chance of having a child with problems (medical ) would be too great and we are just not equiped to handle something like that. I feel devastated, of course, and hurt, but if it is an acceptable thing, I guess I will do it- he also proposes that once the child is born, later on, he can always divorce the 2nd wife and remarry me if there is a problem with her staying in the USA long term- she likes to travel abroad alot. Comments?

Sarah,

I feel sadness for you, but know that all things that G-d does is for our best. Have you both ever thought of adopting a Jewish child? This would almost take the place of having a child of your own. If you raise him/her from his/her youth or infancy, it would almost be as if you have given birth to him yourself. And what reward awaits you in the other world if that child should happen to be an orphan!

As for your husband thinking to marry again in order to have a child of his own, the Rabbis teach us that it is forbidden (from the standpoint of the Torah itself) for a man to marry a woman with the intent of divorcing her.

David

problem is, I cant find a source for adopting a jewish child- apparently, as previously noted by one of the rabbis - you would be a guardian of the child- the blood parents remain the parents. also, my husband wants a genetic child. We postponed this whole thing and now he feels its too late to have a healthy child with me. i would love to find a source for jewish adoption. the websites i find are of no help.

oh and also his idea is that the person he would marry, would live with us as an extended family member. they would be the blood parents and i would be the mom because she wouldnt be around much due to her Spiritual search/journey.

B"H
Sarah,

I never said that you would be the biological parents of that child. So what would it matter to you if you would be the guardian of that child? You would still develop strong emotional ties for the child, and it would be nearly as though you gave birth to him yourself! I find it hard to believe that you cannot find an adoption agency with a Jewish child. If there isn't one there, find one in another country! (I've known Israelis who have adopted children from Brazil!)

If you would agree to the arrangement of sharing your husband with another lawfully wedded wife, this would be another option. Afterall, in Jewish law it is permitted for a man to take two wives. (They could marry, let's say, in Cyprus, or in some other place that accommodates for such marriages.)

David

i'm sorry- i didnt mean to make it sound like you said anything about being the biological parents... i myself am adopted and had the best parents. i am currently on line looking for adoption agencys as we speak- problem is they seem mostly geared towards christians. I looked for an orphans website but cant locate one as of yet but thank you- i will continue to search! you've been helpful!

i have no problems with adoption - my husband has issues because he'd like a genetic child and i do have issues with a second wife.

B"H

Sarah,

Divorce is not an easy thing; neither is living with your husband's co-wife. Perhaps you'll just have to select the lesser of the two "evils." Or, perhaps, your husband will agree to adoption.

David

first of all a couple of clarifications on jewish law. When someone gets divorced and marries someone else they cannot ever remarry their first spouse. secondly, although originaly jewish law allowed for polygamy a man by the name of Rabbeinu Gershom outlawed it. If you would like more info. on why and when, you can post and i'll write more.
I would suggest that you consult a good Rabbi who will be able to walk you throughthe entire process, he can fill you in on all the important laws to know and he might very likely have access to information on jewish children available for adoption. A counceltation with a Rabbi may also help clarify alot of hte issues that you now don't see eye to eye on.

Good luck

If you need help with finding a Rabbi post and I'll give you an e-mail address to e-mail me privetly

quote:

Originally posted by R:
First of all, a couple of clarifications on Jewish law: When someone gets divorced and marries someone else they cannot ever remarry their first spouse. Secondly, although originaly Jewish law allowed for polygamy, a man by the name of Rabbeinu Gershom outlawed it. If you would like more info. on why and when, you can post and I'll write more.
I would suggest that you consult a good Rabbi who will be able to walk you through the entire process, he can fill you in on all the important laws to know and he might very likely have access to information on jewish children available for adoption. A consultation with a Rabbi may also help clarify alot of hate issues that you now don't see eye to eye on.

Actually, the Torah only prohibits a man returning to his divorced wife in the event that she (his divorced wife) married another man after her divorce, and was once again divorced by her second husband. But if that woman had never been remarried, her ex-husband can return unto her. And even if the man himself had remarried and divorced his second wife, he can still return unto his first wife - so long as she had never been remarried. This is very plain to those who study the halacha.

As for taking two wives, Rabbeinu Gershom's edict concerning polygamy has long since been expired, as it was only intended to be enforced for a thousand year period. Even so, the Jews of the levant (and of Yemen) have never taken upon themselves, neither accepted, the edicts of Rabbeinu Gershom. Today, the prohibition is largely a secular-law issue, and not religious.

David

quote:

Actually, the Torah only prohibits a man returning to his divorced wife in the event that she (his divorced wife) married another man after her divorce, and was once again divorced by her second husband. ... - so long as she had never been remarried.

Is it ever permissible for a divorced woman who becomes a widow to become remarried to her first husband?

With respect to prohibitted marriages of a Kohein, I think, there is a distinction between widow and divorcee.

David,
Is the prohibition on whether the ex-wife married another man or if she had biah with another man...regardless of marriage?

Also, about going to Cyprus to marry the second wife; I think he would have a problem because the state of Israel recognizes marriages from Cyprus and I don't think Cyprus recognizes more than one wife. He would have to marry his second wife in a state that recognizes polygamy if he is to stay out of trouble legally....unless, of course, he divorces his wife (in a civil way) first without a get and she continues to live with him.

According to secular laws of most countries, it's not illegal to "shack up" with someone, even in Israel. So it's possible to have two women with ketubot from one man concurrently, without being married in a civil way. Halachically one would be married to both women but according to civil law, they would be "shacking up"....no legal harm done.

What does a mormon family have to do when travelling outside of Utah? Does the man have to only travel with one wife at a time? or divorce all but one wife before leaving the state?

What does a moslem family do when travelling to the US, or another country which prohibits polygamy, coming from a country which permits moslem men to have multiple wives?

There is no polygamy police in the US. Polygamy cases usually arise because a complaint has been filed by someone, usually one of the wives. So a Mormon man who has multiple wives does not need to do anything, nor does a Muslim from abroad. In essence, the burden of proof is on the state to prove that the man has concurrent marriage certificates with more than one woman. So people may have been married in Florida but now live in Utah or married in Kuwait but live in California. So authorities would have to search the marriage records from every state and every country to prove cause when there hasn't been a formal complaint from anyone.


Ironically, Utah has the toughest laws in polygamy. If a man "shacks up" with more than one woman, it's polygamy in Utah, but not in any other state. A lawsuit has been filed recently challenging the Utah laws on polygamy. They are using the same-sex marriage argument which has been accepted by many legislatures.

It's also telling that many of the people who are staunch supporters of same-sex marriage are bitterly against polygamy....go figure.

quote:

Polygamy cases usually arise because a complaint has been filed by someone, usually one of the wives. So a Mormon man who has multiple wives does not need to do anything, nor does a Muslim from abroad. In essence, the burden of proof is on the state to prove that the man has concurrent marriage certificates with more than one woman. So people may have been married in Florida but now live in Utah or married in Kuwait but live in California. So authorities would have to search the marriage records from every state and every country to prove cause when there hasn't been a formal complaint from anyone.

Sometimes its noticed, such as during a routine traffic stop.

Avimelech seemed to notice that Yitzchak Avinu didn't seem to be relating Rivka Imenu as a brother and sister would...

Hence its possible that a man travelling with multiple wives and children from multiple wives would be perceived by someone who knows what to notice would pick up upon the fact that there were multiple wives.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

Is it ever permissible for a divorced woman who becomes a widow to become remarried to her first husband?

Rob,

A woman who was divorced from her first husband and then married another, and whose second husband died (making her a widow), cannot be remarried to her first husband. The moment she marries another man after her first divorce, rules out all possibility of her ever returning to her first husband.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Avi d'Israeli:
David,
Is the prohibition on whether the ex-wife married another man or if she had biah with another man...regardless of marriage?

Also, about going to Cyprus to marry the second wife; I think he would have a problem because the state of Israel recognizes marriages from Cyprus and I don't think Cyprus recognizes more than one wife...

Avi d'Israeli,

As to your first question, I do not know the answer. What I do know, however, is that if a married woman has coitus with another man willfully, she is no longer permitted unto her husband. If she were raped by another man, against her will, she is still permitted unto her husband (unless her husband was a Cohen, in which case she would no longer be permitted unto him).

I will look for an answer to your question about a divorced woman having relations "outside" of wedlock.

As for Cyprus, actually people do go there to marry in civil marriages, and their marriages are accepted by the State of Israel. Although it is forbidden under secular law of the State to marry two wives, anyone coming into Israel from abroad with two wives (even if he had already been married in Israel and returned with another wife) is accepted by the State. I know many men who are married to two wives!

David