It has been said that humanity currently suffers from a darkness of people's souls. What do you make of this statement? I am still working on my conclusion. I'd say it is true a lot. But then I have to word a good reason for that. Could it also be true for most of us ? I haven't got anywhere near to an answer on that one (yet! Lol - it is so hard to think through).

I'll tell you. I don't go out of my house because I am afraid people will go "Boo."

Are you really? That's tough. That's how it is for some people:No joke.So how does one face the fear and do it anyway ? Or should we?

Which is an important side issue, I guess. I like to stop and look at the side issues along the way. Somehow they seem to count too.

quote:

Originally posted by Raybin:
I'll tell you. I don't go out of my house because I am afraid people will go "Boo."

Perhaps I should have mentioned that this was something I read recently (it lobbed into my inbox actually, as part of a subject matter I subscribed to for daily messages). It was said by a famous rabbi.

But I left the name of the rabbi out as I was interested in what people made of the comment without thinking also about the rabbi.

The comment is relevant to some things I frequently think about. One thing is Truth. Another thing is Reality. And another thing is people's behaviour ; why they do what they do; and how to evaluate this. All of this I find quite a challenge ,but I keep chipping away at it because it seems I should and must. I just thought my task might be helped somehow if I floated this comment. But perhaps I should have contextualised it better. I'm curious to know what people thought when they read my initial posting. But I am not asking you to share that.

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
It has been said that humanity currently suffers from a darkness of people's souls. What do you make of this statement? I am still working on my conclusion. I'd say it is true a lot. But then I have to word a good reason for that. Could it also be true for most of us ? I haven't got anywhere near to an answer on that one (yet! Lol - it is so hard to think through).

Just going out to get food is always an ordeal. Sometimes I wish I didn't have to eat. I think everyone should spend as much time out in the fresh air as possible. I love to go camping for that very reason, not too many people around and I am really an outdoorsy person.
Anne Frank said she believed that people were basically good. I have read that noone has a tendency to be good or evil, they must constantly choose between the two throughout their lives. I am uncertain how true that is. Sometimes people can put up some really rough fronts and be sweet as pie underneath it all. So how do you judge a soul? How do we know if a person has a Jewish Soul? I wish I could answer your question better. Maybe a rabbi will answer it. It is a very good question and I am anxious to know the answer, too.

Side issue? I wasn't aware of any sides.
I'm sorry, this probably seems irrelevent to you. It is a challenge to me to try and communicate since you are so sophisticated. But I have a sister like you and I just felt like reaching out. I won't bother you again.

Kol Tuv

Hi Raybin.

I'll respond to your question ,but perhaps first I should explain about what I meant about the "side". It has to do with how tightly one is keeping to what the initial posting is about. Which isn't to say that what you are considering isn't related to the topic. And I am certainly very interested in what you are saying. So please don't worry. I'm sorry if I was too abrupt in how I commented about side issues. I didn't mean to be insensitive.

From what you said, it seems to me that you are very aware that some people are not at all nice (which can be putting it far too mildly) and can put us at risk. I have to agree with you. And basically that is the sort of quality in people that my post was about - the with "darkness" in souls.

For me personally, when I am trying to decide what is a good choice of action, the crucial question has to do with likely outcomes if I act in certain ways. And there can be several outcomes. Such as I might be abused if I do a particular thing, but I will be glad I did it as it was the right thing to do, and/or I needed to do it to get some other result. Then I have to weigh up the outcomes. Such as maybe I won't do something if I might be killed if I do, but I might choose to do it if I am just being abused as long as I can cope (or learn to cope) with the abuse.

It's not easy when we are aware some people can do bad things or think bad thoughts. So it is easier on us when we can avoid them. The question is perhaps one of " Is this working out, avoiding people?". If it is, maybe no worries. But you might be missing out on some good connections ,and what of living in community as is the Jewish way (with variations) ? And, there is a really bad risk that, if you avoid people out of fear, your fears will grow and grow because you never face them and so learn that most times what we fear is not going to happen really and that maybe the opposite will happen. Typically, if we keep facing our fears, they get less and less or at least more manageable. We may even forget we were once afraid of doing something and even like to do it because we learn that good things are most likely to happen. And, by facing our fears we can learn better ways to think, feel and react concerning people who make life difficult for ourselves. So much is a process. I like the saying that life is a journey.

An important thing you seem to be weighing up is the risk factor in meeting people and how to estimate it. There are some signs we can learn and a self-protection course or book of some kind would help with this. Also we learn from experience and from what other people say on the subject. Studying deeper into Judaism gives all sorts of relevant insights. Some people could estimate the likely risk better than others. And I think we need to learn to trust our own sense of danger, as long as we are sure we are not overreacting.

The more I think about my initial post, the more I am coming to realise that different people may look at it diffently. Replying to your post helped me see this better. Thanks.

Your question about judging souls interests me but I am out of my league here. Just last week I was wondering just the same thing about how to know if a person has a Jewish soul. A Kabbala type guy told me he could tell I had a Jewish soul and he commented further that he could "read souls". In a way, I have a sense of this so I just said " I know I do". But really I have to admit that I can't explain what it is all about, so I'm for sure no expert on the matter. I do think, though, that how people think, feel and act can tell a lot about them. We can talk about "soul" in theory, but what does this translate to in practice?

About tendencies to good or evil, I think this comes down to what exactly one is talking about, such as when. The Jewish idea is that our souls are created pure. But at any one point in our existence, maybe a person has more of a tendency to react well or badly. But even then you'd need to specify the exact circumstances. A person could behave well in one way but badly in another.

Ann Frank was a child. So , though she was a special child, there were things she was not able to see with more discrimination ,ie, discernment. It has been said that each person has an opinion about the level of goodness and badness in people. But what is the correct view?
And maybe it is not accurate to make the judgment generally as people vary, and they vary over the course of their own existence and depending on the specific circomstances.

The subject of choice between good and evil is another matter also. But see what I said before. And it has been said that the best predictor of what a person will do (choose) is what he or she has chosen before. This is talking about predicting how a person might behave (and hence, say, the risk or consequence for you).

Wow! There are so many aspects to this matter. Sometimes it seems almost too much.

Good discussion. In every human being, there is a "Yetzer haTov" and "Yetzer haRa" - the good and the evil intention. In a sense, we all are Dr. Jeckylls, striving to keep our Mr. Hydes tightly in control.

It is said that when Hashem separated between the material and spiritual worlds, He put up a curtain to stop Or-Ein-Sof - the Infinite Light, of which He is the Source - from blinding us. This curtain only allows 1 percent of the Light to get to us: too much of a good thing is not good. On the other hand, the Sitra Achra - the "other side" - does not have such curtain. For the world to be in balance, there has to be an equivalence between the Light and the Darkness. But we can only experience 1% of this Light; whereas all 100% of the Darkness is available to us.

It is a convenient simplification to view the darkness as a black hole: a huge mass concentratted in a small volume; once you are in its gravity field, it will eventually suck you in. Astronomers have seen evidence of stars dragged into black holes.

We are not stars. We have a soul and a mind. Hashem gave us the ability to choose, and when doing so, of course we need to keep in mind that there is a "dark side of The Force". It is up to us to let it rule us or not.

That said, I don't think that today the darkness of the human souls is any worse than it was before.

Please disregard this post. I hit "quote" button instead of "edit".

quote:

He put up a curtain to stop Or-Ein-Sof - the Infinite Light

There is a well known Rashi comment about the handles of the Aron Kodesh being perceivable through the curtain which divided between the Kadosh HaKadoshim and the main area.

I've been contemplating very many aspects of this with respect to the warp in spacial measurements around the Aron.

Would you please follow up with any citations or other things you have learned about this curtain which you mention?

It seems to me that one message of the Aron handles penetrating into the accessible area is that it is a constant reminder that Hashem's infinitely infinite glory --- perhaps the Ein Sof --- is really very close...

Just like the Aron was out of this world, but still perceivable even when "hidden" behind a curtain, Hashem's presence in our world, the multi-dimensional spiritual world which is mostly hidden from us, is discernable where it is interfacing with our world.... at our world's door but without penetrating our world.

I found it very interesting and meaningful how you talked about that, Alex.

I followed very well what you said but I should say that I can't respond well to what you said as my Kabbala knowledge is unfortunately only rudimentary though ,but I can catch up quickly (and look up words) if you don't zoom too far ahead and use words and references I don't know yet. I find I understand Kabbala concepts pretty well when I do study it. I totally avoided it for years, out of some sense of fear - maybe wisely so as I needed to build up a foundation for it - and now I am suffering from a "language" ignorance with regard people who talk using its concepts, theories and words. This is just to explain : = please dont write me off + an apology for not being able to dialogue with you sufficiently in your way. It'd be good if we could find a way to communicate using some kind of "translation" (a word used in this way by Thomas Kuhn of "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" (1971).But, if not, I will enjoy observing you chat to others (though I'd prefer to join in though, when I really do grasp a lot - but that's ok).

About what you said, replying to it very inadequately, I think the quote is based on a messianic perspective of a belief in the immanent appearance of the Mosiarch. It was said by a very prominent rabbi. I myself have not yet been able to conclude that such an eventuality is immiment , but that is just re my attempts to understand and is just therefore only a comment on where my thinking is at on this matter.

I guess, also, that I also don't have a belief (yet?) either , that the darkness in our souls is worse. Incidentally, I found the way you explained that "darkness" to be very helpful - thanks. Bad things are still going on, but are they worse? And, as I read somewhere just yesterday, people have been predicting the coming of the Mosiach for a long time, and repeatedly, but still nothing.

This isn't, of course, to deny the presence of the darkness, and, I would say, hence our need to deal with it in ourselves (and help others with it?). But ,if the coming of the Mosiach depends on lots of darkness being present in us (I don't know about this myself myself, but it sounds as if this is what is being implied in that quote) , does this seemingly paradoxically suggest that we and others should be as bad as possible?

Yes, I thought the question was good too. Hard though.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:
Good discussion. In every human being, there is a "Yetzer haTov" and "Yetzer haRa" - the good and the evil intention. In a sense, we all are Dr. Jeckylls, striving to keep our Mr. Hydes tightly in control.

It is said that when Hashem separated between the material and spiritual worlds, He put up a curtain to stop Or-Ein-Sof - the Infinite Light, of which He is the Source - from blinding us. This curtain only allows 1 percent of the Light to get to us: too much of a good thing is not good. On the other hand, the Sitra Achra - the "other side" - does not have such curtain. For the world to be in balance, there has to be an equivalence between the Light and the Darkness. But we can only experience 1% of this Light; whereas all 100% of the Darkness is available to us.

It is a convenient simplification to view the darkness as a black hole: a huge mass concentratted in a small volume; once you are in its gravity field, it will eventually suck you in. Astronomers have seen evidence of stars dragged into black holes.

We are not stars. We have a soul and a mind. Hashem gave us the ability to choose, and when doing so, of course we need to keep in mind that there is a "dark side of The Force". It is up to us to let it rule us or not.

That said, I don't think that today the darkness of the human souls is any worse than it was before.

Rob, is it possible you are not on exactly the same topic as Alex?

With regard your concluding paragraph, could you elaborate on what you mean by Hashem's presence being discernible at the interface with but not in our world. I can't work out what this interface is in real terms. Also, I see Hashem's presence as very much being present in our world, immanent as well as transcendent. I know others do too, as opposed to a purely transcendent view of G-d, a view that seems deistic to me.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

He put up a curtain to stop Or-Ein-Sof - the Infinite Light

There is a well known Rashi comment about the handles of the Aron Kodesh being perceivable through the curtain which divided between the Kadosh HaKadoshim and the main area.

I've been contemplating very many aspects of this with respect to the warp in spacial measurements around the Aron.

Would you please follow up with any citations or other things you have learned about this curtain which you mention?

It seems to me that one message of the Aron handles penetrating into the accessible area is that it is a constant reminder that Hashem's infinitely infinite glory --- perhaps the Ein Sof --- is really very close...

Just like the Aron was out of this world, but still perceivable even when "hidden" behind a curtain, Hashem's presence in our world, the multi-dimensional spiritual world which is mostly hidden from us, is discernable where it is interfacing with our world.... at our world's door but without penetrating our world.

Do you mean darkness in the sense of being evil or being lost?

I think this is the quote from which I formed the question I posted:

"Before Dawn
------------

They say the most profound darkness comes just before the dawn. The
harshest oppression of our forefathers in Egypt came just before their
liberation.

That was a coarse darkness of slavery of the body. Today it is a
darkness of the soul, a deep slumber of the spirit of Man. There are sparks
of light, glimmerings of a sun that never shone before "”-but the
darkness of night overwhelms all.

Prepare for dawn."

Now I'm wondering if my qustion here did justice to this. I leave it to people to decide. I pulled out the bit I did as I wanted to know what that meant.

In the light of the full quote, what do you think? I'm wondering if "lost" or "evil" are different types of judgments made of people with this darkness. But what then is the nature of this darkness itself? Maybe it is like using the word "blind" and so means an unawareness of, or not being lit up to awareness by the sparks of divine "light". This is Kabbala talk, I guess.

Then, when he talks of "slumber", it is another kind of way of describing the way the mind is operating, ie, not awake to; not aware of what G-d wants.

Is dawn the coming of the moshiach?

Just some ideas.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

He put up a curtain to stop Or-Ein-Sof - the Infinite Light

There is a well known Rashi comment about the handles of the Aron Kodesh being perceivable through the curtain which divided between the Kadosh HaKadoshim and the main area.

I've been contemplating very many aspects of this with respect to the warp in spacial measurements around the Aron.

Would you please follow up with any citations or other things you have learned about this curtain which you mention?

It seems to me that one message of the Aron handles penetrating into the accessible area is that it is a constant reminder that Hashem's infinitely infinite glory --- perhaps the Ein Sof --- is really very close...

Just like the Aron was out of this world, but still perceivable even when "hidden" behind a curtain, Hashem's presence in our world, the multi-dimensional spiritual world which is mostly hidden from us, is discernable where it is interfacing with our world.... at our world's door but without penetrating our world.

Interesting thought. I think you are right. The curtain-related citations I found most convincing were in Michael Laitman's book on Kabbalah (not sure if I spell his last name correctly; the edition I have is in Russian), as well as a wonderful book by R. Laibl Wolf titled "Practical Kabbalah" - no, there is nothing of magic in that book; it's just the title. Some other material I gleaned came from www.chabad.org and www.aish.org.

Rosemary, I think you are too tough on yourself. I don't think I understand Kabbalah either. We are all students, and the wonderful thing about this forum is that we can each contribute to the others' knowledge and understanding.

Back to the curtain and the 1% light vs. 100% darkness. As I've been contemplating the Mitzvos and Torah and our history, an interesting thought struck me. Hashem has been breeding us all these years. By setting the strict rules about whom to marry, what to eat, how to behave, and by sending us the enormous trials that no other nation in the world has endured and survived, He has created a small army of fighters - not necessarily soldiers, but tough survivors with a strong sense of ethics and morality.

And then the meaning of the term "Am Segulah" - the "chosen people" - all of a sudden began to make sense: not chosen people in the Aryan sense of the word - it would be ridiculous to think that, after the Shoah and other tragedies - but a chosen army unit. We are like the border guards, and that is why every strike from the "dark side of the Force" has always been on us first, and will always be. We are the curtain against darkness.

Sorry, again hit the wrong button

quote:

Rob, is it possible you are not on exactly the same topic as Alex?

With regard your concluding paragraph, could you elaborate on what you mean by Hashem's presence being discernible at the interface with but not in our world. I can't work out what this interface is in real terms.

It is likely, but Alex usually accomodates a math/physics digression well ;-)

Absolutely Hashem fills all of Creation, including our world.

However the requirement that all persons and animals not be on Har Sinai at the time that Hashem's more visible presence came onto the mountain, and I believe the sky bending down to touch the mountain as well, is a different type of presence.

What I have in mind is when some sort of multi-dimensional object would pass through our 3-dimensional space...

Perhaps when someone or something is taken out of this world (beyond our limits of time and space) its then in a 4 or more dimensional world.

And that it could be possible, just like wrapping a 2-dimensional surface over a 3-dimensional object, that our 3-dimensional world could be spread over a 4-dimensional object, and where they touch, that's an interface.

And there can be discernment of something at the interface which need not (destructively) penetrate our world. A stone dropping through the surface of water, or an arrow shot through a piece of paper on a target, I see as a 3-D object penetrating a 2-D surface.

Thank you Rob, for so patiently explaining that. I went through a variety of emotions as I read that. Basically, I suffered a huge temptation to think I knew nothing at all. I hope not, but...I am trying very hard to hang onto my hat.

I guess we are thinking about this differently somehow. I am impressed by your pyrotechnics (if that is the word).

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

Rob, is it possible you are not on exactly the same topic as Alex?

With regard your concluding paragraph, could you elaborate on what you mean by Hashem's presence being discernible at the interface with but not in our world. I can't work out what this interface is in real terms.

It is likely, but Alex usually accomodates a math/physics digression well ;-)

Absolutely Hashem fills all of Creation, including our world.

However the requirement that all persons and animals not be on Har Sinai at the time that Hashem's more visible presence came onto the mountain, and I believe the sky bending down to touch the mountain as well, is a different type of presence.

What I have in mind is when some sort of multi-dimensional object would pass through our 3-dimensional space...

Perhaps when someone or something is taken out of this world (beyond our limits of time and space) its then in a 4 or more dimensional world.

And that it could be possible, just like wrapping a 2-dimensional surface over a 3-dimensional object, that our 3-dimensional world could be spread over a 4-dimensional object, and where they touch, that's an interface.

And there can be discernment of something at the interface which need not (destructively) penetrate our world. A stone dropping through the surface of water, or an arrow shot through a piece of paper on a target, I see as a 3-D object penetrating a 2-D surface.

Wow! Alex, I am gobsmacked by that interesting take on "the chosen people". I wonder. Y'know, I think you may be onto something. Thanks !That idea you gave me will sit with me for quite a while, I think.

And thanks for the compliment.

I'll leave the curtain business, as per the discussion, to you and Rob I can use metaphor and love poetry ,but I just can't get a handle ( ) on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:
Rosemary, I think you are too tough on yourself. I don't think I understand Kabbalah either. We are all students, and the wonderful thing about this forum is that we can each contribute to the others' knowledge and understanding.

Back to the curtain and the 1% light vs. 100% darkness. As I've been contemplating the Mitzvos and Torah and our history, an interesting thought struck me. Hashem has been breeding us all these years. By setting the strict rules about whom to marry, what to eat, how to behave, and by sending us the enormous trials that no other nation in the world has endured and survived, He has created a small army of fighters - not necessarily soldiers, but tough survivors with a strong sense of ethics and morality.

And then the meaning of the term "Am Segulah" - the "chosen people" - all of a sudden began to make sense: not chosen people in the Aryan sense of the word - it would be ridiculous to think that, after the Shoah and other tragedies - but a chosen army unit. We are like the border guards, and that is why every strike from the "dark side of the Force" has always been on us first, and will always be. We are the curtain against darkness.

quote:

It is likely, but Alex usually accomodates a math/physics digression well ;-)

Thanks, Rob I agree with you on all other counts - about the multidimensionality of our universe beyond the four dimensions we are trained to perceive, that is, not about the flattery, and about Hashem being present in all of Creation. What is still not entirely clear to me is whether He fills all of Creation, or whether He is present in Creation? If the former statement is true, then it means that our world and we are merely a part of Hashem, in which case all theological discussion stops making sense: what can a red blood cell know and / or care about the body it lives in? If the latter is true - that He is present in Creation, but does not fill it all - then what are the other forces acting in the universe, and what can we do to make His Divine Presence more permanent? We know what King Solomon did. But what can we do almost 3000 years later?

I think it was the Ari who described Creation as the tsimtsum in which a void (the Vessel)was aformed in Hashem's infinite Light, into which the Light headed, filling the void, which ultimately caused the explosion of the Vessel into myriads of shards (kelipoth), and our duty is to assemble the light attached to the kelipoth back until they form the Vessel again.

That is a wonderful, poetic story, making a lot of sense; however, it only describes the relationship between the Light and the Void. Is Hashem the union of the two? Does Hashem fill both the Light and the Void? Is Hashem present in both? Does He want us to get the void rebuilt?

How do we find the shards keeping the light? How do we bring them together?

Sorry if I sound pessimistic. I am not. These questions are dictated by the desire to comprehend the incomprehensible.