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B"H
Alex wrote: "What is still not entirely clear to me is whether He fills all of Creation, or whether He is present in Creation?" My friend, I do not know if this will answer your question, but there is an old Jewish teaching found somewhere - I have often come across it, but do not remember its source at the present. This is the gist of it: "Why is He (G-d) called 'Makom' (Omnipresent)? Because the world is not His place, but rather, He is the place of the world." למה × ×§×¨× ×©×ž×• מקו×? ×ž×¤× ×™ ש×ין ×”×¢×•×œ× ×ž×§×•×ž×• ××œ× ×”×•× ×ž×§×•×ž×• של ×”×¢×•×œ× Sincerely, David Ben-Abraham |
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There is an idea I worked out about G-d when I was a kid. I don't know if this means I should revise it. Anyway, the idea is that, if G-d created everything, G-d must be more than everything (as G-d didn't put ready existing bits together). Which doesn't have to mean G-d is apart from everything. Indeed, G-d would have to include everything somehow as, if not, God would not be more than everything. In words I learned later in my life, this means God is omnipresent, and omnipotent.
Please feel free to criticize this. If it is not good enough, I should revise it. |
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David, thank you. That is definitely great food for thought.
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Shalom I feel this is a very important matter. I apologize if I come in the middle without being invited but I feel these lines might help to add, in the begining of Mesalit Lesharim in Spanish " El Principio de la Devoción y la raiz del servicio Divino son el esclarecimiento y la verificación, por parte del hombre de sus obligaciones, en este mundo para saber hacia donde debe dirigir su mirada y cual debe ser la meta de toda su labor todos los dias de su vida ". I translate with the permission of our sages : The begining of the devotion and the root of the divine service is the clearing and the verification over human creature of his/her obligations in this world to be able to know at what ground direct his/her eyes and what life goals must be put in front every day of life.
We all have the capacity of choosing between the right way ( good ) and the evil way ( left ) Rabi Akiba ( of blessed memory ) always said that every person has the capacity to choose (Avot 3:19 ) ( taken from www.tora.or.arg) gentiles and jews I feel the main difference would might be encountering the presence of our Lord as we climb our ladder toward unifying light over dark and coming enlighted by shejiná. All good will hold up a strong position and The creator will stand over and shine with lots of blessings. Lej Leshalom |
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Yes, I also think that is very important. We can choose good or bad and this affects both us and much else.
By the way, it is ok to join in an ongoing topic here  . Welcome.Quote: You said: The begining of the devotion and the root of the divine service is the clearing and the verification over human creature of his/her obligations in this world to be able to know at what ground direct his/her eyes and what life goals must be put in front every day of life. We all have the capacity of choosing between the right way ( good ) and the evil way ( left ) Rabi Akiba ( of blessed memory ) always said that every person has the capacity to choose (Avot 3:19 ) |
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Thanks Rosemary.
I think that it is very important to acknowledge that evil is G-d creation too, so It might be established in order for us to fight our way to Din ( justice ) and be able to enjoy g-dly goodness. Now, I know that there is a wild world out there. However, the courage to fix it, as far as what might be at our reachable sense, must be within our souls. When the system imposed by human promotes unfairness, unjustice does the contrary of what it would had been one drove by justice and love of G-dly feeling so in order to fix that inercial movement a stronger force of opposite direction must be applied to endure a process of correction. Kol Tuv |
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Yes, I agree with this and it fits with my Jewish studies.
Now I have an application regarding this, as of yesterday when I started a new course, and I wondered if others might be interested to hear about it. In this course we are taught, among other things, in class ,through simulated practice, individually or in groups,, how to create community interventions. What is bothering me is the process of creation of these interventions. They do not come from explicit beliefs which have been put forth and scrutinised, but rather from some unaddressed creative process either individually or individually + the dynamics of group choice. When the adequacy of the interventions is assessed , it is on a pass/fail basis, again on unspecified criteria in the mind of the lecturer. This whole process bothers me greatly. Do you think I am right to worry that bad rather than good could eventuate? Some years ago I was employed to create a particular curriculum in a state education department. I realise now that I was naive and made a lot of assumptions when I accepted the position. This is primarily because I discovered that, the way curricula were expected to be created, and all the teams working on different curriculum development projects did this, was the same process exactly as I described in the previous paragraph. The projects were created , seemingly ex nihilo, from the project worker's minds and then refined as a result of similarly seemingly ex nihilo feedback from people higher up the hierarchy, right up to the minister for education. This process bothered me then and still bothers me. And now I find it has come back to haunt me, giving me the challenge to try thinking the matter through again. I'd love to hear any thoughts people might have on this. It seems an important matter.
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Shalom Rosemary:
yes I agree with you. Nevertheless, interaction among students and lecturers might give you a sense on priorities and main objectives that each needs to master in order to be efficient incorporating any community toward main purpose. Now thinking about it I find Rav Markel kabbalah teaching very useful and could be useful to solve this situation. Let me explain myself. There are three intelectual faculties: a.Intuition- Hokhma ( Wisdom),b. Comprehension -Binah( Understanding ), C. Concentration- Dass ( Knowledge ). each one posseses depth, width, and lenght. I believe that you need to develop true comprehension ( Binah of Binah ) of the simulated practice in order to be able to get across and fullfill expectation. Even though you still have the lecturer´s emotions that introduces a very subjective sensibility on evaluation. Your prior research on a community would give you the capacity to take this community into its main parts and allow you to be able to understand at the same time the lower facts of main parts until you perceive the whole picture that will allow to find the right door to open and enter. There is a process called Hisbobenus that I understand means " To make oneself understand, learning" this process might nullify lecturer´s emotions and arise objective sense of reality on evaluation. Since objective evaluation gives more chances that good rather than bad could eventuate. At last Gamzu Le Tova. Kol tuv Lej Leshalom |
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If I have understand you correctly, yes, in the past 36 hours I have come to see some similar positives and ways to deal satisfactorily with a situation which in some ways is not what I would prefer. It is affirming to hear your comments. Thank you.
Essentially, I will come to the group process from myself ,perceiving,acting and understanding as best I can. I will deal with what is given there before me and work towards goals that I am clear in my mind about. This is my personal aspect and has nothing to do with the set group tasks which are on another level. Yesterday I did a fair bit of research on the internet regarding groups and found some very good and helpful material there. This refreshed my memory (which covers a fair number of years now) regarding certain things (such as to do with groupwork, and organisational and social psychology). As I progressed through this material, a lot of things worked out in my mind. It all helped me get a good and informed perspective and to take a more profound, detached view. I think I was "up too close before", in some respects. It also revealed to me that my classmates are very immersed in the "up close" experience. I don't know about the lecturers yet but they seem promising. Nevertheless, I know I can satisfy them well enough regarding assessment and maybe references, and that seems enough. What is the first name of Rav Markel? I found two when I did a Google search. Both seemed good, however. And thank you, that Google search led me to some internet sites I had not seen before and will now be exploring. I am on a learning curve. I am just getting, slowly, into Kabbala now though I seem to have always had an affinity with it (as well as an avoidance and fear of it). Now it is time but I have observed that I am holding back somewhat. But it's ok: I shall go as fast as I am comfortable with. I need to process, integrate and check as I go. I am being very wary. I am still a tricky "fish" to catch. I believe nothing because somebody says so. I don't know if what I have just said creates the wrong impression. Put another way, on a certain level I feel I know about Kabbala very well in some respects ,but now it is as if I am revisiting an old friend but who might "kill" me (putting it simplistically). So I am on guard. On another level, I am too unfamiliar with many of the words in Kabbalah and this is currently giving me a language to acquire and is posing some communication problems. Please pardon me if this sounds like a lot of nonsense. "Hisbobenus" , I am very familiar with from childhood though I am only recently learning this word. Thank you for mentioning it. And, yes, I think my immersion in hisbobenus in the last 36 hours has led me to a much better vantage point and inner centering.
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I have just been tidying up my inbox and doing some reviewing of forums I was participating in at Global Yeshiva.
When I came to the post below I found I was seeing it in another way than I did before. This time I was struck by the word "courage" and realised it is appropriate. And I thought how difficult it can be sometimes to decide whether one should muster this courage; bring forth a challenge; and face the consequences (which can be unsettling and unwanted). Thinking further, after reading the final sentence, I am currently thinking that the force one musters to make the challenge must certainly be "stronger" (in the sense of potency) if one's manouver is to succeed. This could mean all sorts of subtleties in delivery, in practice. This matches with something I have been thinking since yesterday: that I need to find efficient methods of responding to my group members when I am thinking how a way somebody is proposing we go as a group is not advantageous ,but somebody is wanting it for some reason (even self-interest) and might well oppose a rejection of their proposal. By the way what would you like to be called at Global Yeshiva ? I wasn't sure how to address you.
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Shalom Rosemary
Certainly, you can call me Alexander and I am very happy you are feeling more confortable. If you feel as learning Kabbalah you can go to the following: WWW.thewellsprings.com this site is developed by Rabbi Yossi Markel Kabbalah On Line. There I hope you would find more answers to rising doubts. One general definition of kabbalah as I understand is Receiving, allowing ourself to be aware... . Thanks Very Much Lej Leshalom |
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Shalom Alexander. My son's name is that. I am glad I asked and now I can seem less impersonal.
Yes, I am more comfortable. I have worked through what was bothering me badly, with your help. But I find I am feeling avoidance regarding going to the course this morning. But I shall go and hopefully it will be a path that leads to plusses somehow. There may be experiential learnings I need to acquire. Thanks for the URL of the site. I saw that one in my checking and meant to get back toit. Now I certainly will and will do so as soon as I can. And thanks for your kind reassurance about kabbalah. As with all things perhaps, like electricity, it is safe if approached and handled well. Some of my doubts are ones I have been avoiding facing, putting them in the too hard basket for later. Now "later" is closer. But I don't have to stress out. There are deep issues I need to come to terms with. I studied theology and philosophy to try to come to terms with such things. Some issues were resolved but some remain. I am still chipping away at that. I still actually have a master's philosophy thesis (in a coursework master's degree) still to write. I've taken leave from it. It got to a "leave alone" stage. My lecturers were no help. They didn't understand, were too shallow, and went for the "Just go and do it on anything" solution. But me, I'm very stubborn: my thesis will either advance my understanding or I won't do it - why waste my time, etc? Some of my "doubts" regarding being involved with kabbalah are actually conditioned fears. The best way to deal with them is by exposure. I am going for cautious exposure in small bursts rather than flooding. Flooding might not be a good idea. Existence is really very complex, though the right solutions can, once got to, be amazingly simple.
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Rosemary, I am pasting a link to this thread, which shows an interview with three reformed terrorists, who speak out about the darkness of hatred and suspicion which had been inculcated in them since their youth. This remarkable interview was aired on American television. PLEASE WATCH! (Click on to Link, or Copy and paste the URL/Link into your media player. Choose File and Open URL.) http://tinyurl.com/dl2dm You asked about what we make of this current darkness that envelopes humanity, and if I might add, particulary in our own region of the globe. I haven't really given it much thought, but I have always been of the opinion that when hatred, suspicion and fear pervade in a society, rationality and social justice should not be expected to flourish. Sincerely, David |
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Shalom David.
Thank you for the link. There are certainly lessons to be learned here. You said I have always been of the opinion that when hatred, suspicion and fear pervade in a society, rationality and social justice should not be expected to flourish.. That makes sense to me and I have thought and observed this often. I liked the way you put it. Your comment and the link tie in with an interest I have long had in understanding why people can do cruel things, ranging from words that hurt, through domestic violence to killing and atrocities. My interest is not idle curiosity though: I have wished I could identify what could be done to lessen the incidence of such awful behaviour. Sometimes the task just seems too big but I still think about it from time to time. My mother used to get terribly upset about atrocities and it is true that they are truly horrifying. But what is needed is to bring them to an end, and to do this seems to require much insight into what is going on in souls when they become dark. |
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Rosemary, please be careful. Nietzsche said, "The more we look into the abyss, the more the abyss is looking into us" - apologies for not quoting a Jewish thinker, but Nietzsche belongs to the entire human civilization, as do all other philosophers, including the Jewish ones from R" Hillel to the modern Jewish thinkers.
There was a reason why the Kabbalah masters - from R" Akiba to the Ari - forbade the studying of the "Other Side" (Sitra Achra). Nietzsche did not come up with this aphorism out of the blue. And another aphorism, this one by Victor Hugo - "The sleeping reason gives birth to monsters". |
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Alex, thank you, friend. I was touched by your warning. And it gave me pause for thought too.
I haven't finished thinking about this: It is a new conundrum you have posed to me and worthy of starting a new thread - and a challenge indeed. But I'll reply, tentatively now as I'll be busy for at least the next 6 hrs, and I am est, Australia with shabbat coming. I am among people who respect Nietzsshe despite everything. So, if he said that, I'll ponder it. Also I think I have heard it before somewhere, and the "vibes" are good, if not the memory in detail. But I think , as with cautions about kabbala, this caveat can be countersaid. I already have the glimmerings of some ideas on this, but no time to develop them (I must get going). So I will just say for now that what has come to mind so far is that we Jews are obliged to fulfil our mission and do as we should and also that one is protected if he or she stays under the shadow of the Almighty and calls on G-d for help. What exactly did R"Akiba mean by the "Other Side"? I am not into the dark arts. I am not even into too much speculation given the limitations of our human understanding. It is the troubles of humanity that concern me. Jung, (whom I diverge with considerably in some ways but who also seems to have had some good insights) believed that we must also see our dark side, our shadowif we are to become whole. It is the loss of innocence but what choice is there. I think that to remain innocent and look evil in the face can crack one's mind apart. Well... That quote by Hugo sounds ok. We have to become "awake", right? We need to become aware and see life for what it is, including the dark side, and so deal with it. E]Originally posted by Alex: Rosemary, please be careful. Nietzsche said, "The more we look into the abyss, the more the abyss is looking into us" - apologies for not quoting a Jewish thinker, but Nietzsche belongs to the entire human civilization, as do all other philosophers, including the Jewish ones from R" Hillel to the modern Jewish thinkers. There was a reason why the Kabbalah masters - from R" Akiba to the Ari - forbade the studying of the "Other Side" (Sitra Achra). Nietzsche did not come up with this aphorism out of the blue. And another aphorism, this one by Victor Hugo - "The sleeping reason gives birth to monsters".[/QUOTE] |
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Shalom Rav, Beith Israel!
Yes, there is a current "darkness of human souls", yet, both the carriers of it and the source of it - are horridly misplaced by some of this group. To say, that this darkness envelopes "our own religion", is irrational, illogical, and fataly damaging at the same time. Irrational, may be, also because our faith (as all major religions), is not rooted in logic and/or physical conrectedness - in Platonical terms. But this is another topic. The damaging aspect of the statement, though, should be addressed and exposed - to prevent further errosion of Jewish Identity, as well, as a further sinking into new "depths" of "modern liberalism", so typical for so many Jews. The source of such a defeitist approach seems to be our own eternal complex of self-blaiming, or "eternal guilt". When something is going wrong, the first place a Jew looks for an explanation - is within him or herself, "I might've done something bad...How can I better myself....what mitzvah can I do - to correct the problem?" While being deeply rooted in one of the major stances of Torah - such an approach had been gradually transformed by thousand of years of Galut into something, that Torah has never intended to produce - "a self-hating projection"{ (borrowing a popular term of "projection" from psychology here. A.F.). There are too many reasons to list, as to why and how it happened, but some, most prolific, are - the lack of "Talmud Torah", and the application of Jewish perception of "self" and of the world - to completely unhuman and logic-deprived phenomenon of nowadays - islamic terror. This terror IS based in teachings of quran. No matter how one interprets it, the bottom line of quran could be summarized into few shocking "postulates": a) for a true believer, a present world is nothing, but "hell"; (thus, the value of THIS life, no? A.F.) b) the highest achievement of any true believer - is to DIE in the name of allah; In other words - such a death- is a sure "shortcut" to a "real world", or a "paradize", which begins AFTER death; c) the "infidels" (i.e., those who don't accept allah, or even "wage a war against allah") - are to be elliminated. There are numerous "surahs" in quran, that describe in great detail "methods and techniques" of doing so - you all are invited to research the subject on your own. I would like to quote only one of those, "5:33: The punishment of those who wage war against allah and his apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides..." (the cutting off heads as a "punishment" is in other "surah", but it's there. A.F.) I can only imagine, what a storm of critique am I about to evoke, including, but not limited to "simplistic", "radical", "fanatic", etc., etc., etc. Spare it, please. My ego is not big at all. However, I studied islam and quran for many years, under arabic professors, and, at the least, I am entitled to my own opinion, yes? There are two largest rooms in the world. One - a room for improvement, and another - a room for interpretation (e.g., Talmud, "hadith", etc.). The "smallest room", by the way, is a mushroom. The power of interpretation is nothing new, as applications of statictics illustrate so poigniantly. However, there is one particular truth, painfully obvious to any decent person: Not every islamist is a terrorist, but 99.9% of terrorists today are islamists. The number of islamists nears 2 billions today, and one question I want to pose to the group is - How many mass protests of 9.11, or of Breslan massacre of almost 300 CHILDREN,or - of beheadings of human beings were there in Islamic World? (I won't even touch on continuous murderous attacks by arabs in Israel; Attacks, targeted deliberately at shoppers, passenger busses/vans, pregnant women and infants/children). The answer is as humble, as I am - NONE. One of the opening "surahs" of quran postulates, "5:51: O you, who believe! Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends; They are friends of each other, and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend then surely he is one of them." Go on Net, type "quran", and see for yourselves - and so much more. THIS is the problem. THIS is the root of evil. And no matter what "context" would well-wishers construct around this, no matter how many more Jewish families would be violently expelled from their homes (on behalf of historical THIEVES of Jewish Lands) - it won't makes followers of islam "peaceful", or "understanding". "Kor'ot Chaim" of the State of Israel proved it endless times. I lived the majority of my most productive years among arabs, in Israel. I studied with them, hosted them, and was hosted by them (Middle Eastern hospitality is a flattering adjective in itself). Nevertheless, I am ready to testify in any court of Truth and Justice, that the majority of arab children in Israel TODAY (and, regretfully, in many other countries) - are being raised to passionately resent, and, yes- to passionately HATE Jews of Israel and of the world. As we take in, from the first steps we walk the Earth, the concept of "GAM HU", so do they, from birth to death, feed upon "NOT INFIDELS". Don't equate yourselves with islam followers, please. Do not equate myself with them, please. I do not hate. I think, observe, study, compare and conclude. If you'll debate me to the ground, or even draw a cartoon, I promise not to resort to violent protests and burning up your family relics... There is nothing to worry about "bnei ishmael". Why? Because Torah describes their raise, deeds, and their fall so incredibly close to what we see today. Jews should and would continue to worry about keeping G-d's Word alive and well, and hope and pray that our neverending strive for being a "light into nations" is to result, eventually, in coming of Mashiah - soon. This is our mission in this world, and we ARE doing a pretty remarkable job, B"H! Let's rejoice in it and be motivated to do so more and more. The last place "hatred, suspicion and fear" are able to "pervade" - is Jewish collective "society of the world" - almost "by default". Therefore, it does seem, that a very light thought, if any, was given to such an ACCUSATON, but the consequence of believing and spreading it - is grave. Toda Raba and Shabbat Shalom! AM ISRAEL CHI VECHAYAM! P.S. please forgive my grammarand style; I had 3 hours of sleep and am late to work. |
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Shalom Ahuvah.
It has taken you since June 18,2004 to post. Have you been visiting the Global Yeshiva much since then ? You seem to have formed strong and definite ideas about certain people here and about what they think. There was no suggestion that I saw that the darkness enveloped Judaism. Where did you get that idea? The quote spoke of "human souls". It was said by the Lubavitche Rebbe. If you are responding to somebody or some bodies who wrote under this forum topic, it would have been helpful if you had quoted that post or posts. You seem to be suggesting that a number of people were doing this. You wrote very passionately. And you seemed to be mounting both a defence of particular ideas held by Jews and an attack on Islam. As well you seemed to be attacking certain other ideas held by Jews. I am not sure, though, how this quite fits with the topic. Perhaps you could explain? Your post was an empassioned polemic. I wondered if it was like an explosion of all sorts of things you had been thinking, triggered perhaps by something you took the wrong way. But perhaps you just didn't explain because of the devotion of your post to an exposition of a resounding flow of ideas. And yes, there is something else I will say, briefly. This Yeshiva, as I understand it, is devoted to as learned discussions as we can muster in our attempts to become more knowledgable and better practitioners of our religion and servants of G-d. You have lots of ideas you could share with us. Do you think you could do it bit by bit so we can dialogue with you ?
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Dear Rosemary, Shavuah Tov!
I was responding to a member, who stated that "current darkness envelopes humanity, particularly in our own region of the globe". I might be wrong, but when a Jew speaks of "our own region" - isn't it a referrence to Israel? Yet, unless the member was speaking of islamic region, how could that trinity (i.e.,"hatred, suspicion, and fear") be applied to any civilized region? And then - a request to watch an interview with three (!) "reformed terrorists"...Out of 1.5 billions of those,who never condemned targeting and murdering innocent? Or the beheading of human beings, the majority of whom, were the "champions of the of "islamic cause"? Aren't the odds somewhat questionable? I am visiting Global Yeshiva at any opportunity there is, and certainly enjoy reading fine discourses into "Chochmah, Bin'ah, veDaat"...much more than writing myself (smile). "Song of Songs" I re-read recently, directed my toughts into the time of "throwing the stones", rather than "gathering" it. A deterioration of Jewish Identity, exemplified by unforgivable acts of giving away parts of Eretz Israel, and sunctified by JEWISH (predominantly godless) liberals all over the World - is stuggering. Please, let me assure you, I am not a republican either. One of the most apparent reasons - is what I attempted to address in my first posting. An eternal galutian "guilt complex". What else can explain an improbable combination, such as "an attack on islam"? As far as the free Western eye can see - it is islam that is in an attack mode. Yes, ISLAM is, not just some fanatic "militants", make no mistake about it. Yes, G-d created evil too. To evoke and foster a free will of people. A FREE will. Not some "political correctedness", or "self-hate" complex. Let's recognize it and excersise it. If I sound harsh and hurt anybody's feelings, I apologize. But, if you really love somebody, cruel truth goes longer way than the sweetest distortion of thereof. Rav Todot! |
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