quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
Alex, thank you, friend. I was touched by your warning. And it gave me pause for thought too.

You're welcome. I am not sure we will know for sure what R" Akiba meant by the "Other side". After all, only 3 other men managed to advance to such levels of meditation/visualization/Unity as did he. However, only he remained sane, did not become an apostate, and lived to tell the story. That tells me that he probably saw things that no one had (has?) ever seen. In general, the idea is that a similar Tree Of Life, with the similar Ten Sephiroth, identically strucutred, exists on the "Other Side" (to visualize that, I like looking at the dreidel), the difference being that what is on the side of harshness on This Side is on the side of softness on the Other Side. This difference ensures a constant flow of energy (Infinite Light) which flow in turn supports life (some even say, is life).

Alex, I'm so glad you came back to our discussion after the diversion that just happened. It is surely a very important topic , as those of us who have glimmerings of what is involved realise. And some of us are aware of the very real dangers. Which doesn't necessarily protect us from them ,as knowing dangerous creatures lurk in a forest may not be enough to preven them from mauling us if we insist on venturing there. So it may help to talk of these dangers, and/or whatever else seems relevant.

That story about the risks of journeying really deep via kabbala does highlight very real risks, I believe. One has moved into a different way of looking at things and beyond the simple and concrete level of ordinary really religious people. One could say that there are levels or stages of religious faith, from what I have read elsewhere. As one comes to take a more bird's eye view of faith, as a believer, things are seen differently, obviously. I am saying that much more is involved that experiencing a state led to by a technique

I believe that the risk of apostasy may come if one has been travelling intellectually and individualistically only, like a boffin, without a heart/reality connection going to God , oneself, one's religion and one's fellow Jews.

The risk of madness maybe comes if one does not move forward as a unity , when one's middos are sufficiently developed for the stage one is at, and if one has not developed sufficient self discipline/control.

The risk of death may come because each person is made of interconnected functions , and cognitively and emotionally must be ready to face what turns up without spirally into uncontrolled shock (which would therefore include the physical) of some sort because one cannot assimilate it and remain in equilibrium.

I really wish I could give the appropriate quotes and references to the necessary sources , which are necessary. And I hope they would support what I am saying. I think I am on the right track from what I have read within Judaism but I can't quote it offhand. My journeying was via following ideas and my memory is not good enough to remember the sources adequately. I'd have to backtrack and also put a fair bit of time into trying to recall who or what seems to support all this. I hope my inadequate attemps to talk about this important topic is at least of some interest and use.

I am sorry to say that I can't sustain thinking through this material if I turn the tree of life and its components into a concrete rendition. I see and use it as only an elaborate metaphor to act as a way of trying to grasp challenging ideas. I know I've read somebody say that too, which was a relief to me as I already did it like that. I think it may have been Aryeh Kaplan , somebody cited by him, or maybe Gershom Scholem.

If you or anybody else wants to comment about the dangers of going beyond the bounds of the ordinary way, I'd really like to hear about it. I've never been able to keep myself to the ordinary. I tried for a long time though but I think, ironically, doing so wasn't good for me (and I never succeeded anyway). I think I am saner and safer, when I make my choices more in relation to what adds up to me as long as I try to avoid the conditions that lead to apostasy, insanity or death. This to me means i must constantly strive to develop myself in all ways , never overreach myself, and always try to stay close to and be guided by G-d (which includes Torah).

quote:

Originally posted by Alex:

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
Alex, thank you, friend. I was touched by your warning. And it gave me pause for thought too.

You're welcome. I am not sure we will know for sure what R" Akiba meant by the "Other side". After all, only 3 other men managed to advance to such levels of meditation/visualization/Unity as did he. However, only he remained sane, did not become an apostate, and lived to tell the story. That tells me that he probably saw things that no one had (has?) ever seen. In general, the idea is that a similar Tree Of Life, with the similar Ten Sephiroth, identically strucutred, exists on the "Other Side" (to visualize that, I like looking at the dreidel), the difference being that what is on the side of harshness on This Side is on the side of softness on the Other Side. This difference ensures a constant flow of energy (Infinite Light) which flow in turn supports life (some even say, is life).

This is a looping back to the diversion I mentioned in my previous post, Ahuvah's coming in largely tangentially to this topic that we were discussing. Not that Ahuvah didn't say an incredible number of interesting, and diverse, things, all jam-packed together so they were really hard to get at and reply to, let alone reply to together. I twice suggested she make individual posts regarding her ideas, but so far she hasn't. I may even take one of her comments and post it as a new topic myself.

The reason for my looping back is that I found no recent replies to the soul darkness topic when I visited my inbox today. So I thought I'd visit the topic on site and browse around and think some more. Some matters caucht my eye.

Also I had a certain other quote of the Lubavitche Rebbe on my mind. It came in my inbox this morning, coming from a mailing I subscribe to. It fitted with some thoughts I has when I was reading Ahuvah's post and seems to articulate what I was thinking. So here it is:


"From: "Chabad.org" <subscriptions@chabad.org> Subject: DAILY DOSE: Ways of Peace
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:31:00 -0500

B"H

Ways of Peace
-------------

Our mission in life is not to shake up the world but to fasten its
pegs. Not to climb to the heavens and holler and roar, but to walk softly
on the ground. Not to create a storm but rather a dwelling, an earthly
home for the essence of G-d.

If a storm is needed, so it shall be. As for us, we will continue on
our path, the path of Torah, solidly planted on the earth. A path of
pleasantness and peace, bringing order to chaos step by step, until all the
boundlessness of the Infinite Light is arranged firmly in our world.


A Daily Dose of Wisdom from the Rebbe
-words and condensation by Tzvi Freeman
Shevat 16, 5766 * February 14, 2006"


This resonates strongly with the words of the siddur on Shabbat (not only though). It seems on that wavelength.

Ahuvah's post only got me to review and move a step closer to clarity on the matter of where we should focus our efforts in our present times. Looked at like this, my present post isn't all that much of a diversion after all - more a related matter. And so I decided to share it.

quote:

I can only imagine, what a storm of critique am I about to evoke, including, but not limited to "simplistic", "radical", "fanatic", etc., etc., etc. Spare it, please.

quote:

the more our souls are filled with the "lights of holiness", the less darkness there is in them.

Is there an intrinsic assumption that souls are finite?

Oh, Rob, this question is too hard for me. Can you talk about what you are thinking about here?

quote:

this question is too hard for me.

The part of your message you asked about... whether the more a soul can become filled with light of holiness, the less darkness.

If we were talking about a finite vessel, such as a coffee cup, the more milk, the lighter the coffee, at least once the total liquid reaches the brim.

But if we are talking about an infinite immortal soul, perhaps the equation is different?

If we were talking about mitzvos and aveiros on an infinite record with the power of proper teshuva to actually erase aveiros records it would be yet a different balance.

Really my comment was simple at the concept level if infiniteness of soul requires it being other than a simple mixing or one displacing the other.

Well, it depends on what you mean by simple. I did understand the question, sort of anyway. But I have no idea about the answer- I just can't begin to grasp the beginning of one and that is where the "hard" comes in.

Maybe I should explain a bit of how I am thinking about your question. How much do we know about ourselves ? I'd say very little indeed. Others have said this ( but I can't remember who offhand), that we are a great mystery to us really. That may make sense seeing that we are not talking about our material bodies but about aspects of our selves that we are trapped into trying to understand with our very limited understanding. These are aspects that we can't put out on a slab and dissect, like a body.

Dissect the body and it seems that is all there is to us. But there is more than this. So how do we grasp what it is ? With our limited minds, using limited concepts - words that we create. Our knowledge of ourselves is, essentially, an ever changing pattern of shadows like the shadows of the leaves of a tree shone on by a street light, with the wind blowing.

And it is the same when we try to understand
G-d. We just can't grasp the nature of G-d except through using our limited words, which we use as analogies - and sometimes know we do.

And talk of us , apart from the material, is somehow linked to talk about G-d. Maybe this is one reason why it is said we are made in G-d's image.

I know people of various sorts have talked about our nature, including of the soul. But ask me a straight simple question, asking what I think about us, and I have to say that I, yours truly, just don't know. All I get in my head as an answer is a big nothing. So I am thinking your question is too hard for me.

quote:

Originally posted by rob:

quote:

this question is too hard for me.

The part of your message you asked about... whether the more a soul can become filled with light of holiness, the less darkness.

If we were talking about a finite vessel, such as a coffee cup, the more milk, the lighter the coffee, at least once the total liquid reaches the brim.

But if we are talking about an infinite immortal soul, perhaps the equation is different?

If we were talking about mitzvos and aveiros on an infinite record with the power of proper teshuva to actually erase aveiros records it would be yet a different balance.

Really my comment was simple at the concept level if infiniteness of soul requires it being other than a simple mixing or one displacing the other.