Yocheved raised an interesting point on the "Jews for J-sus" discussion: modern statistics show a decline in the number of Jews in this world. Are we really in danger of "extinction"? Will it ultimately be assimilation that delivers the final blow to our proud culture and religion? (I believe that HaShem would never let that happen, as we are slated to be the harbingers of His word, eternally.)

Should we brace ourselves for the brink of extinction, and rally our preservative instincts? Is this really a crisis, or have we been "there" and back before? If it is a crisis, what should we do about it?

Possibly members of the Reform, etc. movements might be in danger of extiction due to intermarriage. But in the Orthodox world I'm sure there has been an increase in numbers.

I am not so sure about the Orthodox either, the problem of "ilegal" conversions among the "Modern Orthodox" -RCA and even the OU- is rampant to the degree that Rosh Rabbis in Israel are not accepting conversions from American Orthodox Rabbis any more, -Wall Street Journal and Jerusalem Post reported on this- I think there are going to be stricter rules and a list of authorized American Rabbis for conversion.

It seems to me that we ought to have rules at least as strict for conversions as we have for kashrut, here in America.

I think you'll find that the whole thing was misreported and there are no problems with RCA conversions.

I suggest you think very carefully before making libellous statements based on what you have read in a newspaper.

I only expressed what was reported by two very reputable news media, The Wall Street Journal and the Jerusalem Post.

I am not the one making this statements, again it was reported by two reputable newspapers and consequently your imputation of me, making this "Libellous" statements is not called for.

Please tell us where they misreported, I have not seen any rectification by the parts envolved.

quote:

(I believe that HaShem would never let that happen, as we are slated to be the harbingers of His word, eternally.)

Should we brace ourselves for the brink of extinction, and rally our preservative instincts? Is this really a crisis, or have we been "there" and back before? If it is a crisis, what should we do about it?

I think we are heading for a close one, AND we have been there before, And HaSh-m will not allow us to perish completely, as there has always been a faithful remnant.

I think we have no right to sit back and watch silently the decline of our people.

As to question of conversions, that is for the authorities, but as for the Jews who have assimilated into reformism, are they still Jews? I know the consensus is "yes" but I still don't know why. Can a person who breaks/;abandons a covenant, still have the benefits of it? Or, does that person need to RENEW the covenant since the contract was already broken? I am for the latter. I think non-observant Jews should go through a conversion process to renew theri covenant with G-d. That is an unpopular opinion, I know, and I might get blasted for it, but that is how I feel. Judaism IS more than just a religion. It is a contractual agreement. And when a contract is breeched, there are consequences and the nullification of that contract ensues. A NEW contract must be made or at least a "re-signing" of the old one. That looks like conversion to me.

I agree with R' Yisrael that the Orthodox community is growing by leaps and bounds. The Orthodox communities are spreading out their boundries.Yeshivos are cropping up all over the place. Birth rates are high.

About extinction we have the Gemara in BB 115b as paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf


6. Answer (Abaye): Tradition teaches that no tribe will ever die out

Quote "As to question of conversions, that is for the authorities, but as for the Jews who have assimilated into reformism, are they still Jews? "

In essence, a Jew that gone astray is still technically a Jew. Don't look at it as getting all the perks of being a Jew, but as still having the obligations of a Jew. Being Jewish is a Metzious (fact) If you are you are. Just like as any evil person doesn't become ousted from the human race by his deeds. Conversion is not just an affirmation, but rather a transaction of a gentile to being a Jew. If he would any time afterwards turn back, then he's still a Jew, though a heretical one. If he's a Jew, then there is no need to make such a transaction.

Off course the B'nei Torah community will survive, my post refers to the well documented articles that appeared in internationally recognized newspapers like the Wall Street Journal and the Jerusalem Post, among others.

I am underlining this because the facts reported are public domain, and to write again about them could not cause any more harm,

Conversely the constructive discussion of this events can help a person that want to become a convert to do it right and with the right Rabbi, and in the event that some where victimized by an improper conversion procedure, a remedy can be used; avoiding major disputes in the present and in the future about their conversion validity.

On top the constructive discussion of the issue would enable others not to stumble with the same problem.

I am sure that the Chief Rabbinate in Israel decided to look closely into this, because of their desire of making the conversion an institution that will bring "Kidush Hashem" like it should be.

Unfortunately there are some,-described by this same sources-, that are not very receptive to a change. An open discussion of the issue could help achieve unity.

So to be fair here is a transcription of one article by the Jerusalem Post



Rabbinate Reaches Deal On American Conversions.

The Jerusalem Post
Matthew Wagner

The Diaspora's largest rabbinic organization settled a dispute Wednesday night with the
Chief Rabbinate over conversion procedures that had threatened to shed doubt on the
validity of dozens perhaps hundreds of American converts to Orthodox Judaism.
Chief Sephardi Rabbi Shlomo Amar and the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) agreed
to establish a joint commission that would draft a mutually agreed-upon list of rabbinic
courts authorized to perform conversions.
The commission is also to draft new directives for conversion procedures in America.
Both the list and the procedures are to be finalized no later than September 11 2006
The two sides agreed that all conversions authorized by the Rabbinical Council of
America in the past and were as such previously accepted by the Chief Rabbinate will
continue to be recognized by the Chief Rabbinate.
Until the recommendations of the joint commission are accepted and put in place all conversions currently under way or shortly upcoming that are authorized by the Rabbinical Council of America will be similarly recognized by the Chief Rabbinate. Rabbi Yehuda Krispel responsible for verifying overseas conversion in the Chief Rabbinate said that the RCA would recommend a list of rabbis and that the rabbinate would double-check that list.

The RCA a predominantly Modern Orthodox rabbinic organization caved in to the
rabbinate's insistence on doing its own investigation of all new RCA-affiliated rabbis.
The RCA had originally demanded that the Israeli rabbinate continue to automatically
okay US conversion courts that have RCA authorization.

In parallel the rabbinate dropped its demand to force all new American rabbis to come
to Israel to take a special test and be interviewed before a three-man panel of senior
rabbinic judges. It also agreed that all conversions performed up until now with
written RCA authorization would be recognized by the Israeli rabbinate.

"The RCA is very pleased with the outcome of our discussion and the agreement that
we reached said Rabbi Basil Herring, executive vice president of the RCA. The spirit and
atmosphere throughout the talks were very positive and reflect a real sense of historic
partnership in dealing with a very difficult issue."

Haredi sources involved with conversions in the Diaspora said that the rabbinate's
crackdown on conversions in America was motivated by a desire to eradicate negative
phenomena. The sources claimed there had been several incidents in which RCA-affiliated rabbis had performed what they called "substandard" conversions.
"In one case there was a Conservative cantor that sat on the panel of rabbinic judges
that oversaw the conversion said the source. In another a rabbi who allowed coed
seating and a microphone on Shabbat in his synagogue was a member of the panel of
judges." Other examples of substandard conversions given by the source included a
rabbi that cooperated with Reform and Conservative institutions in outreach activities.
However the same haredi sources also admitted that the conversions performed
inside Israel by the Conversion Authority which is under Amar's aegis were very
problematic. The sources claimed that the IDF had a conversion factory, and I doubt
many of those gentile soldiers accept the yoke of halachic commandments.

The joint RCA-Chief Rabbinate committee was also tasked with compiling a list of
American rabbis authorized to perform divorces.
Israeli members of the joint committee are to travel to several Jewish communities
across America and investigate firsthand how the conversion courts work.
Rabbi Nahum Eisenstein an expert in conversions and rabbi of the Jerusalem
neighborhood Ma'alot Dafna said that the conversion situation in America was
disorganized. Unlike Europe, Australia or South Africa, there is no centralized rabbinic
court system in America, he said. Most of the Orthodox conversions are performed by
private rabbis and in many cases the other two members of the three-man rabbinic
court are not even officially functioning rabbis.
"Major rabbinic organizations such as Agudath Rabanim Igud Rabanim or the RCA
maintain no central registry added Eisenstein. Nor is there centralized supervision of all
rabbis who perform conversions."
Sources familiar with the rabbinate said that while Eisenstein's portrayal of the
conversion scene in America was true part of the blame for the conversion crisis also
lay on the Israeli side.

quote:

Originally posted by Yocheved Broscova-Guerra:

quote:

(I believe that HaShem would never let that happen, as we are slated to be the harbingers of His word, eternally.)

Should we brace ourselves for the brink of extinction, and rally our preservative instincts? Is this really a crisis, or have we been "there" and back before? If it is a crisis, what should we do about it?

I think we are heading for a close one, AND we have been there before, And HaSh-m will not allow us to perish completely, as there has always been a faithful remnant.

I think we have no right to sit back and watch silently the decline of our people.

As to question of conversions, that is for the authorities, but as for the Jews who have assimilated into reformism, are they still Jews? I know the consensus is "yes" but I still don't know why. Can a person who breaks/;abandons a covenant, still have the benefits of it? Or, does that person need to RENEW the covenant since the contract was already broken? I am for the latter. I think non-observant Jews should go through a conversion process to renew theri covenant with G-d. That is an unpopular opinion, I know, and I might get blasted for it, but that is how I feel. Judaism IS more than just a religion. It is a contractual agreement. And when a contract is breeched, there are consequences and the nullification of that contract ensues. A NEW contract must be made or at least a "re-signing" of the old one. That looks like conversion to me.

Shalom Yocheved,

This proposition would most likely be met with disdain and disagreement, as interesting as it is. I am not even sure if it's kosher, that is, if there are provisions for such a thing in Jewish sources. I would be interested in checking that. Maybe one of us should start a discussion about the necessity (and legitimacy) of such a process. (Wouldn't this undermine the Torah definition of a Jew, which is just a person born to a Jewish mother or a person who undergoes a legitimate conversion?)

Anyway, on a completely functional level, I can see such a process having both benefits and drawbacks. The benefits I think you are completely aware of: the same passion for Judaism that converts feel would fill the baal teshuvas, and they would have a specific guidance system (their rabbis, their teachers, etc.) to help them. The structure of such a process would also bind the community.

However, I seriously doubt that there would be a consensus as to the necessary curriculum--as the posts in this discussion illustrate, Rabbis cannot even agree on a conversion process for goyim, let alone a "baal teshuva process". Of course, such disagreements would lead to various affiliations casting dispursions on others' credibility--a pattern we know all too well.

Also, that would further raise the legitimacy of the principle of organizing Jews into groups and movements (conservatives, reforms, sephardim), dividing, instead of unifying the Jewish nation into one group: the Jews. I like to look at nonpracticing Jews not as transgressors of an entire religion, but rather, as transgressors of specific, discrete mitzvot. That's how our laws have it; that's why we have 613 individual mitzvot to follow. The purpose of that set-up is to remind of us of the many dimensions of being a Jew, the many facets of the Jewish religion. When we break a mitzvot, we do not cease to be Jews, we simply err as Jews. In that case, our responsibility is teshuva, and focusing not on how we failed ourselves AS JEWS, but rather, how we failed ourselves as Jews beholden to HaShem, in the service of HaShem. There's a marked, important difference.

A ritual baal teshuva process would necessarily undermine this fact, as it would stress our affilaition as a Jewish community seemingly over our responsibility to the mitzvot. I am not sure if I am articulating this point clearly, but I really think such a process would be counter-productive.

There's a reason why the defintion of a Jew is resoundingly simple (a Jewish mother, conversion)...Jews are humans, and by definition, inclined to transgress, make mistakes, and learn. The providential, Divine set-up has it that way. We do not cease to be Jews when we cease to practice--such an idea would be antithetical to the teachings of Torah, to what HaShem promised us on Mt. Sinai. The implication of a "baal teshuva process" and ritual, as opposed to a "baal teshuva attitude" (which is how I understand it now), is that at one point, the transgressor lost his Jewishness, or needed to be brought back into the Jewish nation. Jewishness cannot be erased; it is a divine spark; it is indelible. Such a ritual would imply something different.

quote:

Originally posted by Rav Chaim:
I agree with R' Yisrael that the Orthodox community is growing by leaps and bounds. The Orthodox communities are spreading out their boundries.Yeshivos are cropping up all over the place. Birth rates are high.

About extinction we have the Gemara in BB 115b as paraphrased by Kollel Iyun Hadaf


6. Answer (Abaye): Tradition teaches that no tribe will ever die out

Off course the B'nei Torah community will survive, my post refers to the well documented articles that appeared in internationally recognized newspapers like the Wall Street Journal and the Jerusalem Post, among others.

I am underlining this because the facts reported are public domain, and to write again about them could not cause any more harm,

Conversely the constructive discussion of this events can help a person that want to become a convert to do it right and with the right Rabbi, and in the event that some where victimized by an improper conversion procedure, a remedy can be used; avoiding major disputes in the present and in the future about their conversion validity.

On top the constructive discussion of the issue would enable others not to stumble with the same problem.

I am sure that the Chief Rabbinate in Israel decided to look closely into this, because of their desire of making the conversion an institution that will bring "Kidush Hashem" like it should be.

Unfortunately there are some,-described by this same sources-, that are not very receptive to a change. An open discussion of the issue could help achieve unity.

So to be fair here is a transcription of one article by the Jerusalem Post



Rabbinate Reaches Deal On American Conversions.

The Jerusalem Post
Matthew Wagner

The Diaspora's largest rabbinic organization settled a dispute Wednesday night with the
Chief Rabbinate over conversion procedures that had threatened to shed doubt on the
validity of dozens perhaps hundreds of American converts to Orthodox Judaism.
Chief Sephardi Rabbi Shlomo Amar and the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) agreed
to establish a joint commission that would draft a mutually agreed-upon list of rabbinic
courts authorized to perform conversions.
The commission is also to draft new directives for conversion procedures in America.
Both the list and the procedures are to be finalized no later than September 11 2006
The two sides agreed that all conversions authorized by the Rabbinical Council of
America in the past and were as such previously accepted by the Chief Rabbinate will
continue to be recognized by the Chief Rabbinate.
Until the recommendations of the joint commission are accepted and put in place all conversions currently under way or shortly upcoming that are authorized by the Rabbinical Council of America will be similarly recognized by the Chief Rabbinate. Rabbi Yehuda Krispel responsible for verifying overseas conversion in the Chief Rabbinate said that the RCA would recommend a list of rabbis and that the rabbinate would double-check that list.

The RCA a predominantly Modern Orthodox rabbinic organization caved in to the
rabbinate's insistence on doing its own investigation of all new RCA-affiliated rabbis.
The RCA had originally demanded that the Israeli rabbinate continue to automatically
okay US conversion courts that have RCA authorization.

In parallel the rabbinate dropped its demand to force all new American rabbis to come
to Israel to take a special test and be interviewed before a three-man panel of senior
rabbinic judges. It also agreed that all conversions performed up until now with
written RCA authorization would be recognized by the Israeli rabbinate.

"The RCA is very pleased with the outcome of our discussion and the agreement that
we reached said Rabbi Basil Herring, executive vice president of the RCA. The spirit and
atmosphere throughout the talks were very positive and reflect a real sense of historic
partnership in dealing with a very difficult issue."

Haredi sources involved with conversions in the Diaspora said that the rabbinate's
crackdown on conversions in America was motivated by a desire to eradicate negative
phenomena. The sources claimed there had been several incidents in which RCA-affiliated rabbis had performed what they called "substandard" conversions.
"In one case there was a Conservative cantor that sat on the panel of rabbinic judges
that oversaw the conversion said the source. In another a rabbi who allowed coed
seating and a microphone on Shabbat in his synagogue was a member of the panel of
judges." Other examples of substandard conversions given by the source included a
rabbi that cooperated with Reform and Conservative institutions in outreach activities.
However the same haredi sources also admitted that the conversions performed
inside Israel by the Conversion Authority which is under Amar's aegis were very
problematic. The sources claimed that the IDF had a conversion factory, and I doubt
many of those gentile soldiers accept the yoke of halachic commandments.

The joint RCA-Chief Rabbinate committee was also tasked with compiling a list of
American rabbis authorized to perform divorces.
Israeli members of the joint committee are to travel to several Jewish communities
across America and investigate firsthand how the conversion courts work.
Rabbi Nahum Eisenstein an expert in conversions and rabbi of the Jerusalem
neighborhood Ma'alot Dafna said that the conversion situation in America was
disorganized. Unlike Europe, Australia or South Africa, there is no centralized rabbinic
court system in America, he said. Most of the Orthodox conversions are performed by
private rabbis and in many cases the other two members of the three-man rabbinic
court are not even officially functioning rabbis.
"Major rabbinic organizations such as Agudath Rabanim Igud Rabanim or the RCA
maintain no central registry added Eisenstein. Nor is there centralized supervision of all
rabbis who perform conversions."
Sources familiar with the rabbinate said that while Eisenstein's portrayal of the
conversion scene in America was true part of the blame for the conversion crisis also
lay on the Israeli side.

quote:

Also, that would further raise the legitimacy of the principle of organizing Jews into groups and movements (conservatives, reforms, sephardim), dividing, instead of unifying the Jewish nation into one group: the Jews.

...And for this reason (peripherally: Shalom Bayis) this discussion HAS to remain THEORETICAL. We already have too much dissention among our people. It is more a point of debate--an idea in the realm of "ethics" rather than a plan needing to be instituted.

The merits of such perspective being that we take far more seriously our commitment to G-d and can look at it from a simplistic and hardline view: that G-d demands obedience to the covenant we entered into with HIm. Are you obedient or not? And if not, then how does it (Torah--the contract) say things will go for you? In the field and in the city? GOing out and coming in? It is a wake-up call, not the next Essenic movement.

quote:

I like to look at nonpracticing Jews not as transgressors of an entire religion, but rather, as transgressors of specific, discrete mitzvot. That's how our laws have it; that's why we have 613 individual mitzvot to follow. The purpose of that set-up is to remind of us of the many dimensions of being a Jew, the many facets of the Jewish religion. When we break a mitzvot, we do not cease to be Jews, we simply err as Jews. In that case, our responsibility is teshuva, and focusing not on how we failed ourselves AS JEWS, but rather, how we failed ourselves as Jews beholden to HaShem, in the service of HaShem. There's a marked, important difference.

Great point!

quote:

Jewishness cannot be erased; it is a divine spark; it is indelible. Such a ritual would imply something different.

I am a romantic about Torah, so this sounds beautiful to me--but what about bonafide crypto Jews?

For instance a Jew who finds out his/her great-great grandmother was Jewish and/or Grandfather. But due to persecution or whatever lost their faith and then that person finds out they were actually Jewish. Without specific knowledge of their faith, shouldn't they have to convert? Or accordig toyour argument, are they just Jews who have erred (unknowingly) and shouldn't be required to go through any kind of "confirmation"?
Should they go through conversion?

quote:

Originally posted by Mousa07:
I only expressed what was reported by two very reputable news media, The Wall Street Journal and the Jerusalem Post.

I am not the one making this statements, again it was reported by two reputable newspapers and consequently your imputation of me, making this "Libellous" statements is not called for.

Please tell us where they misreported, I have not seen any rectification by the parts envolved.

You stated that "the problem of "ilegal" conversions among the "Modern Orthodox" -RCA and even the OU- is rampant to the degree that Rosh Rabbis in Israel are not accepting conversions from American Orthodox Rabbis any more". This is clearly not true, in light of the later posting you made.

Here is a quote from Rav Rachamim Pauli in one of the torah.org Forums. Rav Rachamim is a Rosh Kollel in Israel:


Geirus Update from the RCA

I am sure that many chaverim have received inquiries, and are themselves not clear, regarding the current confusion resulting from multiple news reports emanating from Israel regarding the acceptance of Geirim from Chutz la-Aretz. I hope that the following information will be helpful:

RCA leadership has been addressing this matter in sustained fashion, together with the Beth Din of America leadership, and other rabbanim around the Jewish world.

I have spoken with the Rav Harashi Shlomo Amar twice in the last two days. He has repeatedly assured me that erroneous newspaper reports and editorials notwithstanding, geirim who come with te’udot giyyur that would have been accepted in the past will continue to be accepted by the rabbanut. I understand this to mean that any geirus bearing an ishur issued by the Beth Din of America (i.e., Rav Gedaliah Dov Schwartz) will in fact be recognized. From his perspective, what needs to be clarified and established are future geirus standards and procedures.

Rav Amar welcomes, and indeed is anxious, to meet with us to discuss this entire matter. To this end a joint delegation of RCA/BDA leaders will meet with him, and it is hoped with other Israeli rabbinic leaders, in the week following Shavuot.

He has promised me that he will ensure that there will be no further misleading public comments from his office or assistants. Until now, rabbinic courts approved conversions and gets by most Orthodox rabbis abroad, largely based on personal acquaintance. Conversions and gets by non-Orthodox rabbis were not recognized.

Your answer has much in common with the Jerusalem post report:

The talks are based mainly on the need to establish a joint commission that would draft a mutually agreed-upon list of rabbinic courts authorized to perform conversions and the two sides agreed that all conversions authorized by the RCA in the past were as such previously accepted by the Chief Rabbinate will continue to be recognized by the Chief Rabbinate.

I belive that the confusion stems from the word "Orthodox", word that was imposed on us by the Reform Movement -during the Ascalah- as a slur to any Jew that behave as a Jew inside and outside his home.

Their view was that the jew should behave as a gentile outside his home. Still the word Orthodox conveyed the concept of traditional Judaism; but now this same word is qualified with the adjective "modern" and the Term "Modern Orthodox" certainly does not convey this concept of traditional Judaism, to the extent that some calls them "Conservadox" no pun intended.

The RCA is caracterized mostly, as a "Modern Orthodox" organization and that is what I was refering to, if they keep this double standard "Modern" in one side and "Orthodox" in the other, like if the Torah could be modernized "Chas V'Shalom" they are going to wind up like you say about the conservative and reform, in danger of extiction due to intermarriage and subsecuent mostly "illegal" conversion of the non jewish spouse.
For all these I prefer the term "Bnei Torah" to identify all Torah Jews.

Thankyou for clearing that up. I was getting worried about one of my friends!

quote:

Originally posted by Yisroel Phillips:

quote:

Originally posted by Mousa07:
I only expressed what was reported by two very reputable news media, The Wall Street Journal and the Jerusalem Post.

I am not the one making this statements, again it was reported by two reputable newspapers and consequently your imputation of me, making this "Libellous" statements is not called for.

Please tell us where they misreported, I have not seen any rectification by the parts envolved.

You stated that "the problem of "ilegal" conversions among the "Modern Orthodox" -RCA and even the OU- is rampant to the degree that Rosh Rabbis in Israel are not accepting conversions from American Orthodox Rabbis any more". This is clearly not true, in light of the later posting you made.

Here is a quote from Rav Rachamim Pauli in one of the torah.org Forums. Rav Rachamim is a Rosh Kollel in Israel:


Geirus Update from the RCA

I am sure that many chaverim have received inquiries, and are themselves not clear, regarding the current confusion resulting from multiple news reports emanating from Israel regarding the acceptance of Geirim from Chutz la-Aretz. I hope that the following information will be helpful:

RCA leadership has been addressing this matter in sustained fashion, together with the Beth Din of America leadership, and other rabbanim around the Jewish world.

I have spoken with the Rav Harashi Shlomo Amar twice in the last two days. He has repeatedly assured me that erroneous newspaper reports and editorials notwithstanding, geirim who come with te’udot giyyur that would have been accepted in the past will continue to be accepted by the rabbanut. I understand this to mean that any geirus bearing an ishur issued by the Beth Din of America (i.e., Rav Gedaliah Dov Schwartz) will in fact be recognized. From his perspective, what needs to be clarified and established are future geirus standards and procedures.

Rav Amar welcomes, and indeed is anxious, to meet with us to discuss this entire matter. To this end a joint delegation of RCA/BDA leaders will meet with him, and it is hoped with other Israeli rabbinic leaders, in the week following Shavuot.

He has promised me that he will ensure that there will be no further misleading public comments from his office or assistants. Until now, rabbinic courts approved conversions and gets by most Orthodox rabbis abroad, largely based on personal acquaintance. Conversions and gets by non-Orthodox rabbis were not recognized.

On a second note, from your answer, and I quote "geirim who come with te’udot giyyur that would have been accepted in the past will continue to be accepted by the rabbanut. I understand this to mean that any geirus bearing an ishur issued by the Beth Din of America (i.e., Rav Gedaliah Dov Schwartz) will in fact be recognized." we can establish from here, that a Teudah giyur that was not accepted on the past and an was not issued by a specific Bet Din will not be accepted, meaning that the rest are unacceptable or "ilegal" conversions.