I am interested to hear comments about whether a Jewish woman should divorce a goy husband who she married before making teshuva. Does it make a difference depending on how he behaves ?

It Does make a difference how he behaves. There are different men, some don't mind becoming Jewish for their Jewish spouse and some do.

I read a story about this Jewish lady who married a Non-Jewish man and they planned to have a secular life together. Later, she became interested in becoming religious and he became upset because they planned on living secularly.
She spoke to him about him becoming Jewish and he was Not for it at all. And so she was stuck, she wanted to learn and grow and teach her children and her husband was upset and trying to stop her and he even was talking about stuff from his religion, just to get back at her.

sharona,

I agree. I also know of the opposite examples, when a Jewish woman marries a non-Jew, and he is quite happy and satisfied with the level of jewish life they have (they are not Orthodox, but I think if she decided to explore her Judaism further, he wouldn't mind). Family life is always about a compromise.

I am NOT a Halachic authority at all, but in my understanding, in Judaism, family is the key to serving G-d and glorifying His Name in everyday life. That means that only a dysfunctional family can be terminated, and only after a lot of councelling. And what about children? Just because one spouse wants to be more religious than the other, doesn't mean the kids deserve their lives messed up.

Alex- Judaism is not based on how we feel about a subject. The Torah has laws and if we want to know something we need to look it up. It does not matter how the husband behaves, they must separate as soon as possible because this relationship is forbidden.

The source in the Torah that a Jew may not marry a Gentile is Deuteronomy 7:3 as it states:3: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son,nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4: For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other g-ds; so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and He will destroy thee quickly.

The source in the Talmud is in Avodah Zarah 36b.

The Rambam in the laws of forbidden relationships 12:1 states that the man or the women in such a relationship receives lashes from the Torah.

You can also see here

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rabbi Mitterhoff,

Dear R" Mitterhoff,

I do remember that passage from the Torah; however, in the Tanach, the word "Ki" - "Kaf-yud" - can mean "because" and can mean "if". And if the two people get married, and one is not a Jew and does not care about his faith, or doesn't care what religion he wants to follow, then how can he take the other one away to serving other g-ds? And, if now, after living secularly, she begins to explore her Judaism, then who can say if this marriage did not bring her there?

Of course there is Jezebel, but there also is Boaz, and there is Queen Esther.

My uncle's wife (a Russian woman) has raised their daughters Jewish and proud of their heritage, while her husband - my uncle (a Jewish man) - did not care much about it. In fact, he grew into Judaism with their children. Should he have divorced her?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

The marriage is not a marriage because there is no kiddushin and there is no heter to have relations with someone who is forbidden regardless of anything positive which may happen to come out of it. Sinning may bring one to tshuva but that does not mean you can sin.

R" Mitterhoff,

You say, "The marriage is not a marriage because there is no kiddushin". But what about the millions of Jews who were married in the Soviet Union and other countries behind the Iron Curtain, where there were no - and there could not be any - kiddushin; no Sheva Brachot; no chupah; just a record in the City Hall? Are all these marriages invalid too? Should they remarry now? Are their children illegitimate?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

"how many Jews were married in the Soviet Union and other countries behind the Iron Curtain, where there were no - and there could not be any - kiddushin; no Sheva Brachot; no chupah; just a record in the City Hall? Are all these marriages invalid too? Should they remarry now? Are their children illegitimate?"

Since there was no Chuppah and Kiddushin, they should definitely do it when they are able, like many of them do. Even Baaley Tshuva from America usually have a "2nd" Chasunah with real Chuppah and Kiddushin. The children of the original marriage are NOT Mamzerim. On the contrary, if they would have been officially married with Kiddushin, and then got a civil divorce, thus the products of the 2nd marriage would be Mamzerim, since Halachicly she's still married to the 1st person. But if there was no offical marriage, then she was never married to the 1st person, so the 2nd one is not marrying a "married woman, and the children aren't Mamzerim.

The only thing is, it's not so simple that there is no Kiddushin here. There is a problem where you have a civil marriage, so we're afraid that they felt that they need "the religious marriage" thus would have relations for the sake of making a Kiddushin (which technically makes a kiddushin since it's one of the 3 ways one could make Kiddushin ) Especially in the earlier generations where they knew that there was a thing of kiddushin. Later generations might have less of an idea of Kiddushin, so I would imagine that the "Chashas" of Kiddushin is less. I don't think in any case a Rabbi would let them marry someone else without a "Get".

By a gentile there is no din kiddushin

This is an interesting subject and I would like to ask a question regarding this. Please consider this example: A man and wife were both Christian and were married in a civil and religious ceremony. Many years after the marriage and after the birth of several children, the Husband discovers Judaism and converts. What is he to do with his non-jewish family? Let us supporse that the wife does not work and stay home to raise the children and that the Husband is the sole provider of income for the family. Is he required to divorce her and his children considering that he and his wife were off the same belief at the time of their marriage? I know that hypotheticals can by annoying, and so I appologies for this, but it is an interesting subject, as I said earlier. Thanks for your thoughts.

dkbengel,

It is a interesting hypothetical question which might have happen.
I don't know the answer... Personally i wouldn't allow him to convert, what family? jewishly he isn't married so if he ever loved her he should give her a civil devioce. though in the United States i think i awomen can make you give her a devioce. the children are still your children.

but i really don't know.

Thank you all for replying to this. I am sorry I couldn't get back earlier but I have now read all your comments carefully.

It seems that such a marriage is not acceptable under Jewish law. No argument here, ok?

There are two things I am now thinking.

The first is how tough it is to end a marriage This is tough for all sorts of reasons (which would vary from person to person) such as one may lose one's and one's children's home, pets and many treasured belongings and also have difficulty in providing for all sorts of things such as for education; internet usage; sport and recreation. It can be humanly hard to do such tough things and sometimes one wonders if one should (but it seems the Jewish woman should, according to Jewish law).

Secondly,it is confusing if different rabbis say different things. Perhaps this woman has misunderstood, but she thinks one rabbi told her to find the Noahides (though she is not a Christian or of any other religion)instead of making teshuva. Also , another rabbi somewhere else got very angry and yelled at her that he didn't believe in divorce and that she should focus on her family and forget Judaism (which she is very sincerely wanting and needing and which is fitting her very well).

I should add that this husband has a lot of problems and is controlling and abusive and does not always handle the children well. He is not religious at all and seems not to have higher ethical reasoning or principles. But the husband is not all bad and is the breadwinner for a wife and a number of children.

I guess I am still confused for some reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Rabbi Mitterhoff:
Alex- Judaism is not based on how we feel about a subject. The Torah has laws and if we want to know something we need to look it up. It does not matter how the husband behaves, they must separate as soon as possible because this relationship is forbidden.

The source in the Torah that a Jew may not marry a Gentile is Deuteronomy 7:3 as it states:3: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son,nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4: For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other g-ds; so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and He will destroy thee quickly.

The source in the Talmud is in Avodah Zarah 36b.

The Rambam in the laws of forbidden relationships 12:1 states that the man or the women in such a relationship receives lashes from the Torah.

You can also see here

quote:

He is not religious at all and seems not to have higher ethical reasoning or principles. But the husband is not all bad and is the breadwinner for a wife and a number of children.

I think - my personal viewpoint, not halachic - that it is better if the Gentile half of the family (the husband, in this case) is non-religious than if he is observant of any other religion. Atheists - unless they are fundamentalist atheists - usually swear by the principle of laissez-fair, "live and let live". So I don't think it is such a big problem for the family that he is not religious.

That he "seems not to have higher ethical reasoning or principles." - that is situation-specific. Haughtiness is a sin, too. And, if a person does the right thing without thinking about scoring points for afterlife, but just because it feels right - he still does the right thing, does he not?

quote:

I should add that this husband has a lot of problems and is controlling and abusive and does not always handle the children well.

Now that is a big problem. And that has nothing to do with the husband being a non-Jew, or not religious: I know around me some of the best fathers who are atheists or Catholics - and I know around me some of the terrible abusive fathers who are Jewish, as well as the other way around. A man's or a woman's nationality or religion is irrelevant to his or her attitude to children. But if the husband is abusive, then she - and the children - would probably be best without him.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alex,

Hi , Alex. Thanks for replying. It is so easy to keep up to date on this site now I have realised I can get notified when there is a posting.

Yes,that seems like a plus that the husband is not of some othe belief. It puzzled me how he can tolerate his wife's religious inclinations and commitment. I guess it is just because he doesn't care per se and doesn't understand how profound is immersion in a religion.

When I said the husband "seems not to have higher ethical reasoning or principles." , I didn't mean it as a condemnation. Is this why you thought of " haughtiness"? It just seems to be this way as he decides what to do on the basis of whether he wants to or not. In fact, he justifies many of his decisions by saying " because I want to". And many of these decisions seem wrong to me. I find this scary and always do a double take when I hear such an "argument" because I myself thoroughly accept that one should try to behave according to the right principles and that these are not set by us individually. In Judaism, what is right comes from our religion and we should learn to live according to this.It is our choice for us and our responsibility.

I just can't get my mind around what she should do.

Hi again. I'm back soon after posting my previous message. After I left before, I went to try to find something I wanted to know about this site. In my searching, I found that Rabbi Mitterhoff had said something in a newspaper and which we could access. I did so. The site's URL came up as http://globalyeshiva.com/Herald.com.htm .

Wow ! To my surprise and gratitude, this newspaper piece was right on what we have been talking about. So it has moved me a bit further on with regard the topic. Only as yet I am still confused. It is as if some anchors have gone down better, but maybe my boat has some holes in it ?

Hi, in reference to the hypothetical situation; what if the wife an children want to convert as well? What if only the children? What if the marriage is okay despite the husband converting? My husband is Catholic and his entire family is Catholic. He wants to convert to Judaism, but we are in a remote location with no access to a Rabbi and my husband recently had a stroke. There are a lot of "what if's" in life. My husband wants our three children to be raised a Jews. What are options for us? Thanks for any insight.

Hi. I am going to be difficult here and confront you on this.

The situation was not hypothetical.

And the situation you are speaking of is not the same.

The case I brought up is of a Jewish woman who married a non Jewish man. Obviously the marriage was a secular one. Now the question is how the marriage stands in Jewish terms.

The answer back from the rabbi is that the marriage is cactus in Jewish terms.

I think you should start a thread to ask your own questions, which are quite different.Otherwise you are hijacking the thread already going as you are on a different topic though I gather you don't realise this.

But to comment somewhat seeing that you did ask about your situation, there are lots of issues involved in the matter(s) you brought up and I believe a rabbi is very much needed to advise you as he can do it better than I can or should. But it really struck me how the vital communal aspect is missing from the equation you present.I am wondering if you and your husband really understand what it is to be Jewish.

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
Hi, in reference to the hypothetical situation; what if the wife an children want to convert as well? What if only the children? What if the marriage is okay despite the husband converting? My husband is Catholic and his entire family is Catholic. He wants to convert to Judaism, but we are in a remote location with no access to a Rabbi and my husband recently had a stroke. There are a lot of "what if's" in life. My husband wants our three children to be raised a Jews. What are options for us? Thanks for any insight.

Shalom Rosemarry,
there are no simple answers. and none of us here truly know you friend and the depth of her sitution. so we can not truly give the answer for her case I personally feel. She must find an orthodox rabbi who she can trust and talk with them and follow their advice.
for many things can and could happen with this marriage...

Hi Amy,

I want to apologise to you as I think I was too hard on you and also somewhat unfair. I just realised and I'm sorry.

The first thing that dawned on me was when I went today to the marriage posting I'd made initially and followed the whole thread down. I suddenly saw what I had seen before but had skipped over and then forgotten about, the posting by dkbengel up the thread from you. Ouch! This person spoke of a hypothetical situation before you. I guess you were running with that when you said "hypothetical" .Not that I really like the use of the word as I think a case is a case is a case.But maybe I'm nitpicking.

Secondly, while it still was a hijack, it was by both of you ,AND, this is what made me really squirm in my seat, I neglected to realise that both you and dkbengel probably didn't realise that as you both may still to learn some relevant things about Judaism - and that's ok of course as things take a while to learn and there are heaps of things we never get around to learning. What I mean is, it is quite different to talk of a Jew who married a nonJew , and two married nonJews , one of whom wants to convert.You know,in Judaism, there are rules and rules, kind of thing. In Judaism, as I think the Rabbi has said better than me,you've gotta go by the rules and to do that you have to look up the rules (Torah). I hope I said that correctly enough.

So, sorry again and all the best.

quote:

Originally posted by Rosemary:
Hi. I am going to be difficult here and confront you on this.

The situation was not hypothetical.

And the situation you are speaking of is not the same.

The case I brought up is of a Jewish woman who married a non Jewish man. Obviously the marriage was a secular one. Now the question is how the marriage stands in Jewish terms.

The answer back from the rabbi is that the marriage is cactus in Jewish terms.

I think you should start a thread to ask your own questions, which are quite different.Otherwise you are hijacking the thread already going as you are on a different topic though I gather you don't realise this.

But to comment somewhat seeing that you did ask about your situation, there are lots of issues involved in the matter(s) you brought up and I believe a rabbi is very much needed to advise you as he can do it better than I can or should. But it really struck me how the vital communal aspect is missing from the equation you present.I am wondering if you and your husband really understand what it is to be Jewish.

quote:

Originally posted by Amy:
Hi, in reference to the hypothetical situation; what if the wife an children want to convert as well? What if only the children? What if the marriage is okay despite the husband converting? My husband is Catholic and his entire family is Catholic. He wants to convert to Judaism, but we are in a remote location with no access to a Rabbi and my husband recently had a stroke. There are a lot of "what if's" in life. My husband wants our three children to be raised a Jews. What are options for us? Thanks for any insight.

Thanks.

Yes,when you get deep into this it is, well, deep.But I only know so much and that is far from enough.I don't just mean about the situation but about Torah,etc.

The Rabbi situation maybe is a bit tricky. Or maybe it only seems tricky. Beats me. But good Rabbinical advice does seem essential, as you said.

It will work out somehow. Ultimately and basically, Hashem is in charge.We can just do our best in each moment.

quote:

Originally posted by Mack K:
Shalom Rosemarry,
there are no simple answers. and none of us here truly know you friend and the depth of her sitution. so we can not truly give the answer for her case I personally feel. She must find an orthodox rabbi who she can trust and talk with them and follow their advice.
for many things can and could happen with this marriage...